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 Posted:   May 14, 2013 - 1:07 PM   
 By:   YOR The Hunter From The Future   (Member)

YOR does not know if this was answered before, so he will just ask:

Where "Keeping Up With the Joneses" should be in the movie "Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade"?

YOR cannot define what scene that piece was composed for.

Was it for a deleted scene? Or an alternate? Anyone know?

 
 Posted:   May 14, 2013 - 1:09 PM   
 By:   Jason LeBlanc   (Member)

YOR does not know if this was answered before, so he will just ask:

Where "Keeping Up With the Joneses" should be in the movie "Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade"?

YOR cannot define what scene that piece was composed for.

Was it for a deleted scene? Or an alternate? Anyone know?




http://www.indianajonesmusic.com/2008/11/indiana-jones-and-last-crusade-1989.html

 
 Posted:   May 14, 2013 - 1:16 PM   
 By:   YOR The Hunter From The Future   (Member)

Interesting, but the anonymous still have questions:

"Okay Jason-

I'm still bugged by all this "Keeping Up With The Joneses" mystery.

Maybe it's just me - but I can't imagine this cue being intended for the film. I had the pleasure of speaking to one of the visual effects supervisors for Last Crusade at a recent screening of the film. He spoke in great details about the messerschmidt chase and never mentioned anything about re-editing. Not to mention, there's nothing in the script to suggest there's anything else in that scene.

As for the cue sheet, are you POSITIVE that 9m2 is "Keeping Up With The Joneses"? The cue on the bootleg begins a little differently than the cue in the film (which I'm guessing is 9m2 new opening - hence the new opening). Is it possible that 9m2 is "Birds of Charlimagne" as it appears on the bootleg and 9m2 "New Opening" is the one that appears in the film? Or could the film opening of 9m2 be just edited for the movie? Any way to transcribe your sheet music and figure out exactly what is what?"

YOR agrees with him. Anyone knows?

 
 Posted:   May 14, 2013 - 1:26 PM   
 By:   Jason LeBlanc   (Member)

"Keeping Up With The Joneses" (OST title, 9m2 in the original sheets) is the original cue Williams wrote for the scene where Indy and Henry get in the biplane, detatch, fight off the nazi biplanes, and it ends with the transition to Hatay where Donovan trades his Rolls Royce for tanks and men.

After scoring the scene, the scene was re-edited in a different way, and it was decided to leave the initial biplane escape unscored. For the final scirmish with the last remaining biplane, Williams wrote "9m2 New Ending", which is completely different music, but still ends with the same Hatay transition.

Then that cue was again revised with a quick "9m2 Final Ending", which replaces only the very end of the cue.

Hope that helps.

 
 Posted:   May 14, 2013 - 1:50 PM   
 By:   YOR The Hunter From The Future   (Member)

Thanks dude!!

 
 Posted:   May 15, 2013 - 10:31 PM   
 By:   Valentinice   (Member)

I was the anonymous poster who YOR quoted earlier. For some reason, this cue (along with the first half of "Belly of The Steel Beast") has HAUNTED me for years.

I truly appreciate Jason's scholarly and truly well-researched opinion on this, but there are still lingering questions that I have about this cue. Below are the rantings of an Indiana Jones fanatic. I only hope that Jason can clarify and perhaps even resolve my lingering trauma over this amazing score...

---

First of all - do we have the actual sheets for 9m2? Last I heard, we only had the two revisions ("Birds of Charlemagne" and the film version ending which uses a somber quote of the Raiders March). I may have missed this crucial point - but I always assumed the original 9m2 hasn't been uncovered.

Are we certain that 9m2 is "Keeping Up With The Joneses" as heard on the soundtrack?

The idea that the scene was heavily edited has never really made sense to me. The scene directly preceding the biplane escape was edited prior to scoring. And the fabulous "No Ticket" scene was trimmed heavily after Williams had already composed the score for more Gestapo-hijinks. But my cursory analysis of the shooting script and a personal examination of some of the ORIGINAL storyboards for the film have revealed no significant changes to this portion of the film.

Not to mention, all efforts of synching "Keeping Up With The Joneses" to the final film are sketchy at best. The bouncy, playful version of the father-son theme just doesn't mesh with the tense, dangerous Messerchmidt chase. Frankly, I highly doubt that either of these scenarios are possible:
a) Williams' original composition would be so off-the-mark that it would seem jarring when put to the picture.
b) The scene was edited so severely that Williams' original cue now seems completely wrong when synced to the scene.

Are we certain that the biplane chase and the ensuing car chase were edited to the point of re-scoring?

And for me, the most damning evidence, which I surmised on Jason's excellent site, is this: The first half of "Keeping Up With The Joneses" is almost an identical reprise of the earlier track "Marcus is Captured" (6m5). The playful variation of the Father-Son theme is almost EXACTLY the same as the earlier cue. It's not the same recording - but a modified arrangement that omits the Nazi Fanfare from the end of 6m5 and instead segues into another variation of "Birds of Charlemagne". John Williams (to my knowledge) has never outright copied and pasted material to this extent anywhere else in the score. Especially cues that appear within 45 minutes of each other in the film. Even during the escape from Castle Brunwald, Williams employs different variations of the Scherzo to keep things fresh. I can't imagine that Williams would take such a large section from an earlier cue (almost the entirety of 6m5!) and drop it into a scene that (as I mentioned above) seems to not fit with it at all.

Are we certain that the first half of "Keeping Up With The Joneses" was intended for the Messerchmidt chase?

My own theory: Williams composed a cue (9m2) that probably started right around the point when Henry and Indy emerge from the tunnel, right before the Messerchmidt drops its bomb. For whatever reason, this version was replaced with a variation ("Birds of Charlemagne"). But after further consideration, and probably due to Spielberg's(?) apparent reluctance to use the Father/Son theme - a final amendment to the cue was made, replacing the ending with a somber quote of the Raiders March. Also, the first half of "Birds of Charlemagne" is different in the film than it appears on the 'ahem' b**tleg. Perhaps some sections of the original 9m2 cue remained? Or perhaps it was tracked from elsewhere in the score. I'm not sure.

Towards the end of the scoring session, when his thoughts turned towards the eventual album release, Williams wanted to find a way to incorporate his father-son theme which was largely omitted from the final film. While he liked the playful variation in "Marcus is Captured" - Williams is no fan of short cues. "Marcus is Captured" is only :45 seconds. So rather than drop it completely, he created a special orchestration that paired it with another very short cue, "Birds of Charlemagne". This version became "Keeping Up With The Joneses" - never intended to be in the final film - and the original version of 9m2 disappeared forever into obscurity, until the day (hopefully soon) when a truly definitive soundtrack can be released.

Of course, I may be completely off the mark - and I hope that some of the more knowledgeable members of this forum (like Jason) can shed some more light on this.

And perhaps, some day, we can solve "Belly of The Steel Beast" issue. But that's a story for another thread...

 
 
 Posted:   May 15, 2013 - 10:44 PM   
 By:   Illustrator   (Member)

Are you taking into account that there was originally a scene involving a WW1 German pilot and Pat Roach aboard the zeppelin who give chase to the Joneses and consequently board a second biplane which crashes?

Until this discussion I'd always thought Keeping Up With The Joneses was just another Williams 'concert arrangement' but maybe it is the remnants of a piece he scored for the deleted pursuit inside the zeppelin and WW1 ace sequence.

 
 Posted:   May 16, 2013 - 8:43 AM   
 By:   YOR The Hunter From The Future   (Member)

So, the enigma remains...

 
 Posted:   May 16, 2013 - 8:59 AM   
 By:   Jason LeBlanc   (Member)

The sheets for the original 9m2 have not leaked, no. However the fact that the revised cue is called "9m2 New Ending" indicates that its only replacing the ending of the original cue, and not the whole thing, so the original cue was longer, and I have no reason to think that "Keeping Up With The Joneses" on the OST is not that full cue.

The only reason people seem to think otherwise is because the music sounds so inappropriate for the scene, and doesn't line up with the final cut of the film. But this wouldn't be the first or last time that Williams has written something that was inappropriate for a scene, and ended up re-scoring it.

I never meant to say that the biplane chase was MASSIVELY re-edited and the final scene is NOTHING like the original - but even a small amount of edits - trimming shots, replacing shots, etc - can make a cue go out of sync quite quickly!


To get back to answering the original question - where should you place "Keeping Up With The Joneses" in a personal chronological edit of the score? I see no reason not to place it in between "The Blimp Turns Around" and "The Brother Of The Cruciform Sword" as intended smile

 
 Posted:   May 16, 2013 - 12:34 PM   
 By:   Valentinice   (Member)

Are you taking into account that there was originally a scene involving a WW1 German pilot and Pat Roach aboard the zeppelin who give chase to the Joneses and consequently board a second biplane which crashes?

Until this discussion I'd always thought Keeping Up With The Joneses was just another Williams 'concert arrangement' but maybe it is the remnants of a piece he scored for the deleted pursuit inside the zeppelin and WW1 ace sequence.


I have accounted for that scene, yes. As far as I can tell, there was no music that underscored that sequence, since I believe it was cut before Williams scored the film.

And yes, that was my assessment as well. I refrained from using the term "concert arrangement" since I don't think it was commonly (if ever) performed in concert.

 
 Posted:   May 16, 2013 - 12:41 PM   
 By:   Valentinice   (Member)

The sheets for the original 9m2 have not leaked, no. However the fact that the revised cue is called "9m2 New Ending" indicates that its only replacing the ending of the original cue, and not the whole thing, so the original cue was longer, and I have no reason to think that "Keeping Up With The Joneses" on the OST is not that full cue.

That makes sense - but again, the film version of "Birds of Charlemagne" (which I have been calling "9m2 New Ending") is still not the same as the one on the b**tleg. It's not entirely clear just how much music there was before 9m2 New Ending.

The only reason people seem to think otherwise is because the music sounds so inappropriate for the scene, and doesn't line up with the final cut of the film. But this wouldn't be the first or last time that Williams has written something that was inappropriate for a scene, and ended up re-scoring it.

I never meant to say that the biplane chase was MASSIVELY re-edited and the final scene is NOTHING like the original - but even a small amount of edits - trimming shots, replacing shots, etc - can make a cue go out of sync quite quickly!


I understand, and I certainly don't think there was any major edits. But even slight trims and replacements wouldn't account for such a drastically out-of-place cue. Not to mention the striking similarities to "Marcus is Captured". If Williams DID score the biplane chase, with a much longer 9m2, I don't think it would be with a jolly, bouncing, father/son march.

I am looking for a way to examine the original sheet music for this sequence. I will hopefully be able to discover the truth sometime soon.

Thanks for your insight Jason - you are, as always, a voice of reason and logic.

 
 Posted:   May 16, 2013 - 12:43 PM   
 By:   Jason LeBlanc   (Member)

Wow - I hope you are able to get the rest of the sheets! There are a bunch more we don't have (anything on the indianajonesmusic.com list that says "Unknown Title"). It would be great to have all those as well!

 
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