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 Posted:   Jul 14, 2013 - 9:23 AM   
 By:   stravinsky   (Member)

I don't know how Fielding continually got away with it. Could it be that because Lutoslawski wrote many of his early works in Poland it allowed Fielding to repeatedly plunder entire passages from the Concerto for Orchestra (completed in 1954) because it was not copyrighted in the west?
This single work seems to have been Fielding's plagiaristic destination of choice and in a way I'm glad it is because for me it enriches Fielding's pallette. This kind of robbery fascinates me. I bought the recent Intrada release of "Beyond the Poseidon Advernture" specifically because I knew Fielding ripped off entire passages from Lutoslawski's Concerto in the score. It was the same with his score to "The Killer Elite" which he also self plagiarises in Poseidon 2!
I can really only think of a few other examples where Hollywood composers seem to almost lift entire passages of classical works then drop them into a film score. The first instance was when I was 15 and bought my first recording of Stravinsky's Rite of Spring.
I had already been listening to Williams score for Star Wars on tape since I was 11 so I was astonished to hear the similarity between the opening of Part 2 of Stravinsky's "The Sacrifice" and Williams early desert cue which was titled "The Dune Sea of Tatooine". The similarities are obvious and it is a rip-off...but beautifully so. It echoes the Holstian "Mars" material at the close of "The Last Battle" as well as the feeling of "The Throne Room" which is pure Walton. I believe Horner also utilised passages from Prokofiev's own film score to Alexander Nevsky in his two Star Trek scores.
There must be hundreds of examples of direct plundering like this. Can anyone think of any?

 Posted:   Jul 14, 2013 - 9:46 AM   
 By:   Jim Phelps   (Member)

Ya gotta love a poster named "stravinsky" trying to start a riot at a forum that is already as mentally unbalanced as they come. For that alone (and that only), I salute you.

NP: Le Sacre du Printemps (Igor Stravinsky)

 Posted:   Jul 14, 2013 - 9:54 AM   
 By:   chriss   (Member)

Oh well, here we go again...

Witold Lutoslawski
Concerto for Orchestra
Polish Radio National Symphony Orchestra/Witold Lutoslawski

 Posted:   Jul 14, 2013 - 10:02 AM   
 By:   stravinsky   (Member)

Oh I'm sorry. Not trying to start anything. Just didn't realize this subject had already been discussed. I'm hardly ever on here. My point is I love it when composers plagiarise themselves as well as each other. I think it's fascinating when a composer makes use of early ideas and regurgitates them Berlioz used to do. That's all I'm saying really.

 Posted:   Jul 14, 2013 - 10:19 AM   
 By:   Simon Morris   (Member)

Ya gotta love a poster named "stravinsky" trying to start a riot at a forum that is already as mentally unbalanced as they come. For that alone (and that only), I salute you.

LOL!!!! big grin

 Posted:   Jul 14, 2013 - 10:29 AM   
 By:   Graham S. Watt   (Member)

stravinsky, I don't see any deliberate desire to stir up trouble in your post. If you change the words "plagiarism" and "rip-offs" it's kind of interesting. But we have been down this road before. Perhaps someone could resurrect that old thread where we all discussed this. I think in the end the Fielding fans, myself included, came to the conclusion that we loved HOW he referenced Lutoslawski and others. Which I think is really what you're saying too.

The funny thing is, when I hear a Fielding score which includes nods to Lutoslawski, I'd never confuse it with a Lutoslawski recording - I'd say "that's Jerry Fielding". I recently heard a Maynard Ferguson jazz piece which pre-dates Fielding's THE ENFORCER, and it had clearly served as a template for Fielding's "Rooftop Chase". Cool dudes such as lexedo exclaimed "Wow, that's pretty cool, man", without giving Fielding a hard time for it.

But to a certain extent I must admit that when I was young and thought that film composers lived in a vacuum, I would be vaguely disappointed to hear that a piece of existing music had found its way into an "original" film score. Now I think of it this way - nobody can deny that Duke Ellington (to pick a name from the hat) was a brilliant musician with an immediately recognisable style. Do we bother that he didn't actually write all those things he performed?

 Posted:   Jul 14, 2013 - 10:48 AM   
 By:   stravinsky   (Member)

Yes. My point is that I like the way Fielding "referenced" this masterpiece of Lutoslawski's. I guess that is a better way of explaining myself that using the terms "rip off" and "plagiarism". But for me this kind of magpie borrowing is what i love about composers and their music! For all i care he should have plundered even more of the Polish masters output. Lutoslawski came to give a talk at my college (Napier Polytechnic of Edinburgh) 20 odd years ago when I was studying the two year music diploma course there.
I was trying to learn Lutoslawski's "Dance Preludes" for Clarinet at the time and I thought it would be cool if I could ask one of the greatest Polish composers of the 20th century to autograph my score. So like a fanny I walked up to the office of the Head of Music to find the door ajar. The director Philip Salmon was talking to Lutoslawski who had his back turned to me whilst speaking...I timidly knocked on the door and asked humbly for an autograph. I was quite close to the masters back and he managed to take the score out of my hands, still with his back turned and signed it then thrust it back to me with not a word said. I felt like worm. "Fuckin Prick" I thought. Now Fielding would NEVER have done that!

 Posted:   Jul 14, 2013 - 12:28 PM   
 By:   Graham S. Watt   (Member)

"... like a fanny...", "...fuckin' prick..." Great stories well-told there, stravinsky. I'm all geared up for my trip back tae the Auld Country this summer.

By the way, I wouldn't be so sure about Mr. Fielding's gentlemanly reactions. At least Lutoslawski didn't throw a chair at you.

 Posted:   Jul 15, 2013 - 3:42 PM   
 By:   stravinsky   (Member)

Graham mate if you are coming to Glasgow why not meet up with me and my pals Alistair and Martin?...the Filmscore Fandans! We meet up a few times a year and it would be good to see you. See what you think ya bam. Cheers Raymie

 Posted:   Jul 15, 2013 - 4:39 PM   
 By:   lexedo   (Member)

Yes, I am very cool. Chics dig me bc I rarely wear underwear. Sometimes, my style is referred to as "Going LexMando."

I've written about Rooftop Chase before in a couple of different threads. GrahamTheMan pointed out a few weeks back that Chattaway and Maynard did a similar thing on the Primal Scream record from Wounded Bird (reissue). (As an FYI, we used to call GSW "GrahamCrax," but with all this rioting going on, "I'm not feeding that beast amigos.") Maynard was kind of disco-fying things back then. The Primal Scream take is very cool - more disco than funk. Primal Scream and The Enforcer are both 76. I am inclined to believe that Fielding and Chattaway may have sat together for this one before making it into their own respective styles.

One of the reasons I love the Rooftop Chase so much, besides all the excellent studio hands playing, is that it is vastly different than other jazz takes Fielding had done at the time. It is one of the best fusion takes in the 70s, up there w Birdland and School Days and Earth Juice and Butterfly and Great Gorge and everything else. It kind of doesn't really work in the movie, but that's my opinion. Given how unique it is compared to JF's typically "old-school Hammond funk" approach (e.g., Super Cops), after Graham disclosed the Chattaway take, I figured it wasn't "all" Fielding's writing. But, guess what? It's still one of the best fusion takes in the 70s. Period.

So, there's a thread I posted in where I compared Harry's World and Trailing Marlowe; the former being on The Enforcer as well. BTW, the two fusion pieces from The Enforcer really came to be JF's "modern 70s" jazz approach, which is excellent. Harry's World is great bc of the Fender bass and Rhodes - very excellent - the Rhodes really just doubles the bass, which I actually play now, but I haven't created charts for it yet even though it is so easy. Anyway, in that thread, wherever it is, I kind of run-down why Harry's World and Trailing Marlowe being almost the same isn't that big of a deal. Member Heath, a very knowledgeable musician BTW, supported me in his best way. (In other words, his level of musical knowledge is much greater than mine, and he was supporting my "simple" way of stating things.)

Even just the other day, Joshy made a thread about Fielding percussion. And I posted in that thread kind of late, which I did on purpose. But Joshy understood what I was getting at: that JF likely didn't write those drum lines, and that some studio drummer (viz., Bunker, Porcaro) likely had some artistic input to the final take. Big woop. And it doesn't minimize the powerful nature of the Wild Bunch's opening titles in the least.

That's the best "sloppy" post I can do on a Monday, folks. Sorry about that.

 Posted:   Jul 16, 2013 - 11:08 AM   
 By:   Graham S. Watt   (Member)

Tae stravinsky - Ah dinnae ken yet whit ma plans ur fur the Auld Country. Ah dinnae ken if ah'll even be hittin' Glesgae, but if ah see ah'm oot that wey an' ah huvnae goat ony plans, ah'll post a message here wi' ma emilio, an' wi could hae a few jars.

To lexedo - Sweet to hear you mumbing, kinda reminds me of Brando somehow, I guess bc of the pic, but that Fielding was sure one cat, dude, man. Shed some light on the Van Alexander enigma, amigo pal? (EDIT - No sweat, bro' - there ain't no enigma, those bro's sure ain't no bro's, bro').

To everybody else - Isn't the rich tapestry of life just wonderful to behold? Everything interconnected. No vacuums, just... pure.... knowledge. That is the way ahead indeed. Love you all!

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