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Likewise! Thanks for chiming in here with more details.
Hi, Yavar. Thank you for your comments. I am not taking offence, whatsoever. Happy to share some of the details. Hope you won’t take offence either with my responses to your new questions!
So tell me if my math is wrong: isn't The Dresser short enough (over 10 minutes, probably around 15, but I'm pretty sure no more than 20!) that it would only take up a single (half day) session with smaller ensemble, on its own? So that means seven sessions for The Hand?
It is not a matter of math, in the sense of a film score is 10-20 minutes, a recording session is 3-4 hours long, as a rule of thumb between 10-20 mins of music can be recorded in a single session, hence, it should be done in half a session, or more. That’s a very simplistic (for lack of a better word) approach, which doesn’t really apply here. The more intimate, and smaller the ensemble is, the harder the recording becomes. Everything and everyone are ‘exposed’. Every nuance, every detail, every aspect of the music must be performed as close to perfection as possible, to get that take (or several takes) that will make it to the final edit. There is no room for errors. In The Hand’s case, the score, besides the fact that is considerably longer, with a much larger orchestra, includes a high number of extended techniques in various sections and instruments that must be performed with precision in order to achieve the wanted result.
Basically, the number of sessions is decided upon reviewing several factors: the amount of music – total duration, instrumentation, level of difficulty, technical aspects, etc. Any unknown variables are factored in by leaving room for the possibility of an additional half or full session. (not sure this is the appropriate verbiage, but I hope it makes some sense).
Ok, this goes some way towards explaining why The Hand would require more sessions than expected for say a 50-60 minute score. But even so, recording only 10 minutes or less of music per 3-3.5 hour session still seems small.
See previous answer!
This both tantalizes me and confuses me.... the former because it indicates these are actually quite substantial and complex concert works, each needing a full day to get in the can! So I'm guessing they are probably all over 15 minutes long at least, which is very exciting. (Intrada recorded the 15 minute long Goldsmith score The Man in a single half-day session, but that was a bunch of smaller cues so much less challenging to record than a through-composed longer concert work I imagine.)
The confusing part is that 7 days are required for the seven concert works and 4 days for the two film scores... and yet those were being saved for a surprise, and not mentioned up front! I don't know how big the ensembles for each work are (would be curious if you're able to share that info), but to me that looks like doing all seven concert works might actually be a *greater* expense than doing the two film scores, even though they weren't initially mentioned as part of the campaign!
They are not all over 15 minutes long. The duration varies from roughly 5 to 15 minutes for a total of about 70 minutes of music, give or take. Again, there are several factors contributing to the number of sessions required. One of them is the fact that these concert works are unpublished, previously unperformed – except maybe at an academic level – with no references, whatsoever. So, we must spend a considerable amount of time, in this case a session (which is not always enough when it comes to concert music), interpreting the performance and the sound of each composition. Then leaving the players to familiarize themselves with the music and rehearsing it with their fellow performers.
I’ve seen a lot of similar comments like the one you’ve made about a label recording an X minute long score in X number of sessions, concluding, or guesstimating that the same rule applies to each project. That’s not how it works, and it can be confusing for other readers who might not have experience on the subject. The only common denominator between these projects is music. Nothing else.
I will kindly ask to refrain from keep bringing back the subject of the concert works not initially mentioned as part of the campaign. It was a ‘bug in the system’ that was fixed within hours. It was certainly a cause for debate, but it has been resolved ever since.
As to the concert works instrumentation, it varies. From as low as 3-4 to almost 30 players. They are more time consuming, not more expensive. As mentioned earlier, the studio cost for the entire project is $75K of which approximately $30K is the cost for the concert works. Plus, the costs of music preparation, mixing, etc.
Yeah, I can understand this. But again it makes it seem like, per minute of music, these virtually unheard early concert works are maybe considerably more expensive to capture for album than the two film scores, for which at least film music fans have some idea as to the sound. (Or maybe they are still cheaper than The Hand, if they are for substantially smaller ensembles?)
See my answer above.
So this makes sense to me too -- but then why bite off more than you can chew, in a single recording trip? Why not start with The Dresser + five concert works in one trip, so that you have 5-6 days of recording, and have that be the first Kickstarter campaign? And then if/when that is successful, you can move onto a *second* Kickstarter campaign for the more ambitious film score The Hand (requiring 7 sessions on its own because of overdubs/effects, not to mention requiring a much larger orchestra + blaster beam, etc.), and pair it with another couple concert works (again, maybe the concert works on each campaign should be bonus/stretch goals rather than included in the main goal)? I think the idea of doing one film score as the base of each campaign, and then adding as many early unknown concert works as stretch goals, makes much more sense rather than trying to go for two complete film scores + 7 concert works all in one go.
Again, a simplistic approach. You must factor in the time needed to reconstruct, prepare, edit, mix, master, etc. That is a very time-consuming process, which adds up to the overall time it will take from recording the music to releasing the album (digitally and/or physically), to rebook sessions, record and do the same process all over again. Having said that, I agree with you that it is a massive undertaking. However, we are more than capable of pulling that off from both a technical, musical, and artistic perspective. All we need, is a little help from our friends, in the financial department. That would be you, the fans.
So if the Blaster Beam is a "remote session", Craig Huxley wouldn't be going to Prague himself? So that's essentially an eighth session related to The Hand, in addition to seven being done in Prague? Man... I honestly had no conception of how expensive The Hand would be to re-record, seemingly requiring more than twice as many sessions just for it, than Intrada did for their entire 73 minute Bernard Herrmann twofer. I believe you that it's that complex, but I really think maybe it should be put off until a second campaign after you've already had the chance to prove yourselves with the first (The Dresser + a few concert works as stretch add-ons? Or another short Horner score like The Stone Boy?
It would be very expensive (and impractical) to fly the Blaster Beam all the way to Prague when it can be done as a remote session. The cost for recording The Hand, is not that high. It is quite normal. I believe that the confusion lies in the fact that you are keep comparing what other labels did, which was running a campaign to cover the recording costs, whereas for this project we are running this campaign to cover ALL costs. Also, as I wrote earlier, the only common denominator between these projects is music. Nothing else.
We are highly experienced professionals with a proven track record. We are not taking chances in the sense that ‘let’s give these scores a go and see what happens’. We consciously chose these scores, and we know that the result will be of the highest quality; The City of Prague Philharmonic Orchestra, Matt Dunkley, Gloria Cheng, and Craig Huxley's participation in the project, my expertise on the subject, the Estate's endorsement and trust in Perseverance Records and the rest of the team, can attest to that. It’s the financial aspect of things that, unfortunately, is keeping us from making this entire project a reality. This is where you come in, and we thank you for that.
That's kinda surprising, considering Matt Dunkley (for example) is something of a "name" conductor here, so therefore probably charges a higher fee than a Prague-based conductor (it's not as if the City of Prague Philharmonic isn't regularly recording film music!), as well as having to pay for his round-trip plane ticket *and* 2+ weeks of lodging?
Matt is one of the best, as everyone involved in this project. By negligible, I meant that it’s not adding up as much as you’d think to the total amount.
Thanks for your openness about answering questions. I hope you won't take any offense at the new ones I've asked.
Yavar
Thank you for your support.
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Hi, Yavar. Thank you for your comments. I am not taking offence, whatsoever. Happy to share some of the details. Hope you won’t take offence either with my responses to your new questions!
Of course not!
It is not a matter of math, in the sense of a film score is 10-20 minutes, a recording session is 3-4 hours long, as a rule of thumb between 10-20 mins of music can be recorded in a single session, hence, it should be done in half a session, or more. That’s a very simplistic (for lack of a better word) approach, which doesn’t really apply here. The more intimate, and smaller the ensemble is, the harder the recording becomes. Everything and everyone are ‘exposed’. Every nuance, every detail, every aspect of the music must be performed as close to perfection as possible, to get that take (or several takes) that will make it to the final edit. There is no room for errors.
I actually was aware of this phenomenon (and it makes sense), thanks to four lengthy conversations had with Leigh Phillips on the occasion of his series of General Electric Theater recordings:
https://goldsmithodyssey.buzzsprout.com/159614/10957890-production-report-the-bar-mitzvah-of-major-orlovsky-sarah-s-laughter-2022-leigh-phillips-recording
https://goldsmithodyssey.buzzsprout.com/159614/12559309-production-report-the-legend-that-walks-like-a-man-hitler-s-secret-2023-leigh-phillips-recording
https://goldsmithodyssey.buzzsprout.com/159614/13692226-production-report-the-last-dance-2023-leigh-phillips-recording
https://goldsmithodyssey.buzzsprout.com/159614/14657499-production-report-the-committeeman-my-dark-days-autumn-love-2023-leigh-phillips-recordings
These General Electric Theater scores he recorded were all written for 10-21 players (quite varied ensembles though). Most of the scores were 8-10 minutes long, and Leigh did all of them in half-sessions with the exception of "The Committeeman" which (due to various complications) spilled over into the other half of the session designated for "Autumn Love" (but then he had to hurry and do the 9 minute "Autumn Love" score in less time to make up for it).
One score "My Dark Days" was 14 minutes of music to record since it was a two-parter, and Leigh did this in a full session. Just like Intrada did the 15-16 minute long Goldsmith score The Man (not a very large ensemble, but bigger than GE Theater for sure) in a single, full session.
So... I'm aware of the challenges, but there are consistent examples we can go by here (including in Prague), so unless something is particularly more challenging with The Dresser, or recording Horner vs. recording Goldsmith, I still think it should be possible to capture that in a single (half day) recording session.
In The Hand’s case, the score, besides the fact that is considerably longer, with a much larger orchestra, includes a high number of extended techniques in various sections and instruments that must be performed with precision in order to achieve the wanted result.
Basically, the number of sessions is decided upon reviewing several factors: the amount of music – total duration, instrumentation, level of difficulty, technical aspects, etc. Any unknown variables are factored in by leaving room for the possibility of an additional half or full session. (not sure this is the appropriate verbiage, but I hope it makes some sense).
Okay, I get that. But still seven (or even six) full sessions of 3-4 hours each seems very generous. Again, I guess I just didn't realize how expensive The Hand is to record. Since it IS by far the most expensive part of this project, if it fails to fund I think you should consider dropping it from this initial campaign, and tackling it on a future one after you and Robin have proven yourselves and built up some crowdfunding goodwill with a successful first campaign -- look at how Intrada got more and more ambitious with each of their three Kickstarters.
They are not all over 15 minutes long. The duration varies from roughly 5 to 15 minutes for a total of about 70 minutes of music, give or take. Again, there are several factors contributing to the number of sessions required. One of them is the fact that these concert works are unpublished, previously unperformed – except maybe at an academic level – with no references, whatsoever. So, we must spend a considerable amount of time, in this case a session (which is not always enough when it comes to concert music), interpreting the performance and the sound of each composition. Then leaving the players to familiarize themselves with the music and rehearsing it with their fellow performers.
Part of this makes sense to me and part does not. If some of the concert works are only 5 minutes long (or just a little longer) would they really take a whole 3+ hour session for rehearsal and another 3+ hour session for recording? A 15 minute long piece makes more sense to me.
I’ve seen a lot of similar comments like the one you’ve made about a label recording an X minute long score in X number of sessions, concluding, or guesstimating that the same rule applies to each project. That’s not how it works, and it can be confusing for other readers who might not have experience on the subject.
Again, that's largely how it seems to have worked for Leigh Phillips and I think he's had a fair amount of experience with this. I'm not saying there aren't certain projects that are considerably more complex and would require more sessions to record less music. But there's still the way things generally work out, and "rule of thumb" which is relevant.
I will kindly ask to refrain from keep bringing back the subject of the concert works not initially mentioned as part of the campaign. It was a ‘bug in the system’ that was fixed within hours. It was certainly a cause for debate, but it has been resolved ever since.
I'll stop bringing it up since it seems like a sore spot, but to me nothing is "resolved" unless the campaign is successful. If the campaign ends up failing, it is relevant to point out what mistakes likely hamstrung it in the first place, so that a future attempt can learn from it and be successful.
As to the concert works instrumentation, it varies. From as low as 3-4 to almost 30 players. They are more time consuming, not more expensive. As mentioned earlier, the studio cost for the entire project is $75K of which approximately $30K is the cost for the concert works. Plus, the costs of music preparation, mixing, etc.
Ok, I appreciate that clarification. I had been assuming that most of these were orchestral works like Spectral Shimmers. But it sounds like the biggest of them are for chamber orchestra, while the smallest are outright chamber music.
Again, a simplistic approach. You must factor in the time needed to reconstruct, prepare, edit, mix, master, etc. That is a very time-consuming process, which adds up to the overall time it will take from recording the music to releasing the album (digitally and/or physically), to rebook sessions, record and do the same process all over again. Having said that, I agree with you that it is a massive undertaking. However, we are more than capable of pulling that off from both a technical, musical, and artistic perspective. All we need, is a little help from our friends, in the financial department. That would be you, the fans.
To be blunt: This campaign asked for quite a bit more than "a little help" up front, and there do not appear to be enough interested fans given the variables of this campaign, as presented. As Bruce above pointed out (and I don't think he was trying to be mean, just honest): campaigns that don't hit at least 15-20% of their goal in their first couple days are generally doomed. This campaign only recently reached 10% of the goal after SIX WEEKS since it began.
Something significant needs to change, for this to be successful (either this campaign somehow, or its next iteration). Or maybe multiple things need to change: significantly less ambitious goal (even if that means setting aside The Hand for the time being), more appealing tiers, wider promotion -- to reach $129,000 this needed to GO VIRAL... not reach 40,000 people on Facebook according to Robin, and still stand at only 181 backers!
Nobody gets anything with an unreachable goal, and frankly setting a goal *more than twice as high* as the highest previous goal (Intrada's Herrmann twofer, which only barely crossed the $60,000 threshold for both scores to be recorded, going $700 over) was just unrealistically optimistic, at best. Wouldn't it be better to get The Dresser and a few concert works, to start out? And then get The Hand and a couple more concert works, in a future round?
It would be very expensive (and impractical) to fly the Blaster Beam all the way to Prague when it can be done as a remote session. The cost for recording The Hand, is not that high. It is quite normal. I believe that the confusion lies in the fact that you are keep comparing what other labels did, which was running a campaign to cover the recording costs, whereas for this project we are running this campaign to cover ALL costs.
Okay, now this is interesting. So are you saying that Intrada's $60,000 on the Herrmann twofer wasn't covering lodging for Mike Ross-Trevor or Bill & Anna Stromberg? They just covered their own lodging? Did Intrada's $43,000 raised for the Goldsmith twofer not cover Leigh's reconstruction fee on both scores? Maybe Intrada covered the CD manufacture costs themselves, but I think they were raising funds to cover more than just the recording fees.
But I guess it's possible that the takeaway from this campaign is: you either need to adjust things so that the costs are less high, or you need to adjust the campaign so that it doesn't cover all the costs, as Intrada and Tadlow did.
Also, as I wrote earlier, the only common denominator between these projects is music. Nothing else.
So we can't ever compare anything, based on similar ensemble size and length of music to be recorded? Okay.
We are highly experienced professionals with a proven track record. We are not taking chances in the sense that ‘let’s give these scores a go and see what happens’. We consciously chose these scores, and we know that the result will be of the highest quality; The City of Prague Philharmonic Orchestra, Matt Dunkley, Gloria Cheng, and Craig Huxley's participation in the project, my expertise on the subject, the Estate's endorsement and trust in Perseverance Records and the rest of the team, can attest to that. It’s the financial aspect of things that, unfortunately, is keeping us from making this entire project a reality. This is where you come in, and we thank you for that.
I worry that in a couple weeks' time the sentiment will turn into we blame you for that, after not enough backers participate at a high enough level. Even though you are phrasing it in a positive way that assumes you fund, it feels a bit like you're saying, "We are professionals with a proven track record. We've done everything right, everything we can do for this to happen and be the best it can be, and if it doesn't find success it's not because we did anything wrong, but because James Horner fans failed us." In order to learn from this campaign and hopefully have a better one in the future, we Horner fans need you and Robin to realize that maybe, just maybe (and despite your experience/track record), you miscalculated.
Getting all those people involved is an impressive feat of organization and planning, but alas the Kickstarter campaign has not been thus far. I'm sure that the result would be of the highest quality IF the funding happened, but if it doesn't happen then it really doesn't matter that Matt Dunkley would have conducted this. But I suspect you can also achieve a high quality (just less ambitious than 140 minutes) product with a more reasonable and achievable goal. And that might mean you having to accept: a local conductor, local pianist, removing The Hand and several of the concert works from this initial campaign, and arranging a more modest recording trip that takes less than one week and doesn't include a two day break.
These may be painful sacrifices, but if they let you record some Horner premieres vs. not recording any at all, wouldn't that be worthwhile?
I did notice on Facebook today that for Cinematic Sound Patreon backers, there is a new interview that my podcasting (and IFMCA) colleague Jason Drury did of you and Robin together, talking about this project and even featuring an exclusive excerpt of your mockup for one of the concert pieces, Pentimenti! It's GREAT that you did this and I'm very excited to listen to it soon; I know Cinematic Sound has a wide listenership and this is exactly the sort of thing to reach more potential backers. But again going back to what Bruce said earlier about crowdfunding campaigns: early momentum is important! This would have a lot more impact if planned early and released at the beginning of a campaign, rather than three quarters of the way through it. Maybe if you relaunch this campaign, Cinematic Sound might be willing and able to time a wider release (non-Patreon) of that interview around the same time you launch?
Oh, nobody has mentioned it here yet but I also really enjoyed the cue you reconstructed from The Hand ("The Lizard's Tail"):
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/robes/james-horners-the-hand-and-the-dresser-complete-re-recordings/posts/4076955
For me, I'll say I'll always appreciate (and like!) your release of Corigliano's unused Edge of Darkness score. I'm sure there are others, but that's the one that immediately popped into my head.
That's an excellent one, Schiffy! If I'm completely honest though, my favorite Perseverance release is Slipstream. I understand the controversy, but in terms of the actual execution of the album itself, it sounded great, played great, had good liner notes and the most beautiful packaging of any release on the label.
Yavar
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I actually was aware of this phenomenon (and it makes sense), thanks to four lengthy conversations had with Leigh Phillips on the occasion of his series of General Electric Theater recordings:
https://goldsmithodyssey.buzzsprout.com/159614/10957890-production-report-the-bar-mitzvah-of-major-orlovsky-sarah-s-laughter-2022-leigh-phillips-recording
https://goldsmithodyssey.buzzsprout.com/159614/12559309-production-report-the-legend-that-walks-like-a-man-hitler-s-secret-2023-leigh-phillips-recording
https://goldsmithodyssey.buzzsprout.com/159614/13692226-production-report-the-last-dance-2023-leigh-phillips-recording
https://goldsmithodyssey.buzzsprout.com/159614/14657499-production-report-the-committeeman-my-dark-days-autumn-love-2023-leigh-phillips-recordings
These General Electric Theater scores he recorded were all written for 10-21 players (quite varied ensembles though). Most of the scores were 8-10 minutes long, and Leigh did all of them in half-sessions with the exception of "The Committeeman" which (due to various complications) spilled over into the other half of the session designated for "Autumn Love" (but then he had to hurry and do the 9 minute "Autumn Love" score in less time to make up for it).
One score "My Dark Days" was 14 minutes of music to record since it was a two-parter, and Leigh did this in a full session. Just like Intrada did the 15-16 minute long Goldsmith score The Man (not a very large ensemble, but bigger than GE Theater for sure) in a single, full session.
So... I'm aware of the challenges, but there are consistent examples we can go by here (including in Prague), so unless something is particularly more challenging with The Dresser, or recording Horner vs. recording Goldsmith, I still think it should be possible to capture that in a single (half day) recording session.
Okay, I get that. But still seven (or even six) full sessions of 3-4 hours each seems very generous. Again, I guess I just didn't realize how expensive The Hand is to record. Since it IS by far the most expensive part of this project, if it fails to fund I think you should consider dropping it from this initial campaign, and tackling it on a future one after you and Robin have proven yourselves and built up some crowdfunding goodwill with a successful first campaign -- look at how Intrada got more and more ambitious with each of their three Kickstarters.
Part of this makes sense to me and part does not. If some of the concert works are only 5 minutes long (or just a little longer) would they really take a whole 3+ hour session for rehearsal and another 3+ hour session for recording? A 15 minute long piece makes more sense to me.
Again, that's largely how it seems to have worked for Leigh Phillips and I think he's had a fair amount of experience with this. I'm not saying there aren't certain projects that are considerably more complex and would require more sessions to record less music. But there's still the way things generally work out, and "rule of thumb" which is relevant.
Hello Yavar,
Following up on your thoughts here are my own, although had to type them in a hurry as I’m in the middle of reconstructing the scores and several other projects.
Regarding number of sessions vs minutes of music, etc.
Here’s two examples with similar instrumentation & length.
Leoš Janácek - String Quartet No. 2 "Intimate Letters"
Haydn - String Quartet, Op. 76, No. 3 "Emperor" Quartet
Can you determine how many sessions they will take to record, based on those two factors alone? If you go over, you save money. If you go under, well, then you either have to book an additional session if you’re lucky and there is one available while you’re on location, or you have to wait until the next available one, thus, delaying your recording and release. Significantly, I might add.
I sincerely don’t get the “after your and Robin have proven yourselves” bit. What is there to prove?
I'll stop bringing it up since it seems like a sore spot, but to me nothing is "resolved" unless the campaign is successful. If the campaign ends up failing, it is relevant to point out what mistakes likely hamstrung it in the first place, so that a future attempt can learn from it and be successful.
Mentioning the “concert works not initially mentioned as part of the campaign” once (or maybe twice) is more than enough to make your point, especially when the subject in question was dealt with within hours. Bringing it back on each comment, I fail to see how can be of any help.
Okay, now this is interesting. So are you saying that Intrada's $60,000 on the Herrmann twofer wasn't covering lodging for Mike Ross-Trevor or Bill & Anna Stromberg? They just covered their own lodging? Did Intrada's $43,000 raised for the Goldsmith twofer not cover Leigh's reconstruction fee on both scores? Maybe Intrada covered the CD manufacture costs themselves, but I think they were raising funds to cover more than just the recording fees.
But I guess it's possible that the takeaway from this campaign is: you either need to adjust things so that the costs are less high, or you need to adjust the campaign so that it doesn't cover all the costs, as Intrada and Tadlow did.
Yes! That is exactly what I’m saying. Not my words either.
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/129145902/on-dangerous-ground-the-man-who-knew-too-much-new-recordings
“For this campaign, we are setting the target just to cover the costs of recording On Dangerous Ground. However, if we're able to raise an additional $10,000, for a total of $60,000, then we will be able to include the Hitchcock. That's our plan. And with your generous support, we can make that plan a reality. Check out the reward tiers and note that there are some cool add-ons you can only see by clicking on the tier itself!”
So we can't ever compare anything, based on similar ensemble size and length of music to be recorded? Okay.
Of course you can! Although, it doesn’t mean the comparison will be accurate (and fair). See my 2 string quartets example above.
To be blunt: This campaign asked for quite a bit more than "a little help" up front, and there do not appear to be enough interested fans given the variables of this campaign, as presented. As Bruce above pointed out (and I don't think he was trying to be mean, just honest): campaigns that don't hit at least 15-20% of their goal in their first couple days are generally doomed. This campaign only recently reached 10% of the goal after SIX WEEKS since it began.
Something significant needs to change, for this to be successful (either this campaign somehow, or its next iteration). Or maybe multiple things need to change: significantly less ambitious goal (even if that means setting aside The Hand for the time being), more appealing tiers, wider promotion -- to reach $129,000 this needed to GO VIRAL... not reach 40,000 people on Facebook according to Robin, and still stand at only 181 backers!
Nobody gets anything with an unreachable goal, and frankly setting a goal *more than twice as high* as the highest previous goal (Intrada's Herrmann twofer, which only barely crossed the $60,000 threshold for both scores to be recorded, going $700 over) was just unrealistically optimistic, at best. Wouldn't it be better to get The Dresser and a few concert works, to start out? And then get The Hand and a couple more concert works, in a future round?
I worry that in a couple weeks' time the sentiment will turn into we blame you for that, after not enough backers participate at a high enough level. Even though you are phrasing it in a positive way to assumes you fund, it feels a bit like you're saying, "We are professionals with a proven track record. We've done everything right, everything we can do for this to happen and be the best it can be, and if it doesn't find success it's not because we did anything wrong, but because James Horner fans failed us." In order to learn from this campaign and hopefully have a better one in the future, we Horner fans need you and Robin to realize that maybe, just maybe (and despite your experience/track record), you miscalculated.
Getting all those people involved is an impressive feat of organization and planning, but alas the Kickstarter campaign has not been thus far. I'm sure that the result would be of the highest quality IF the funding happened, but if it doesn't happen then it really doesn't matter that Matt Dunkley would have conducted this. But I suspect you can also achieve a high quality (just less ambitious than 140 minutes) product with a more reasonable and achievable goal. And that might mean you having to accept: a local conductor, local pianist, removing The Hand and several of the concert works from this initial campaign, and arranging a more modest recording trip that takes less than one week and doesn't include a two day break.
These may be painful sacrifices, but if they let you record some Horner premieres vs. not recording any at all, wouldn't that be worthwhile?
Seems that you are set on repeating what might went wrong with this campaign and keep comparing it with what other labels did, risking creating a very bad precedent, and ‘vibe’. We are, obviously, aware of the fans’ comments, thoughts, and concerns, as well as our 'miscalculations'. We clearly proved that by both revising the entire campaign story within a few hours after its launch and posting a couple of messages to that effect.
Also, you seem to keep rooting for The Hand to be dropped when it’s the ‘flagship’ recording of this project.
Noone is going to lay blame on anyone. That’s not what this is all about.
The alternative, should this campaign fail, will most likely be to drop the concert works entirely and focus on the 2 film scores. A shorter campaign with a significantly lesser goal closer to maybe $70-80K will be most likely to succeed. This amount will include: recording costs (approx. $45K), music reconstruction | preparation, conducting, editing, mixing (stereo & Dolby Atmos), guest artist, remote sessions, travel/accommodation, liner notes, artwork, and Kickstarter fees (which is I believe close to 10%)?
What does everyone think?
If that goal is reached, there might be a chance for a bonus concert score recording (?)
It would be highly unprofessional, and unfair to let these great musicians go, when they happily accepted our invitation and we are lucky enough to have their talent and expertise. Having them on board in the first place, means that they can bring that extra ‘sparkle’ as Robin previously mentioned to these recordings.
Thank you for your kind words re: The Lizard’s Tail. Hope you find the Petimenti excerpt interesting too.
I think that re-running the Cinematic Sound interview, when/if the campaign is re-launched, is something that can be easily arranged.
All best,
N.
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I'm pretty sure Prague does not have the same rules as union sessions here. In fact, I know they don't. So, there is no limit on the amount of music you can use from each session. I'm also not understanding why studio costs would be 75K - in Prague yet. I can do a lockout at Capitol for around 2500 - maybe a bit more these days - that's a twelve-hour lockout. There's just so much that seems nutty about these numbers, but that's just me, I suppose.
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I’m rooting for The Hand to be dropped because — for me, now — it’s not the flagship, but the albatross around the neck of this project, most responsible for causing it to be as expensive a prospect as it is. We’ve also heard reports in this thread about the original recording being officially premiered on album by another label soon (albeit on vinyl). That additionally makes it a lower priority for me because the original recording not only exists but will be getting mastered and released.
The Dresser — for me — is the flagship. It’s the more prestigious film. It’s a Horner score that feels more unique and important from this early period, even if it’s under 20 minutes long. And it’s also the one highlighted and celebrated in this campaign’s main launch video by Sara Horner, so it seems like it’s the flagship to her too!
I want a Horner re-recording project to *succeed* and prove there is an interest in new recordings of his music. With its brevity I’ll bet The Dresser could be done for a modest $15,000-20,000 on its own. The current campaign stands at $13,000 after over six weeks and with little more than two weeks left to go. Optimistically, some smaller concert works could be added on as stretch goals after that initial minimum goal is met, to bring the album playing time to 40 minutes or more and make it feel like a fuller album.
I worry a $75,000 campaign may *still* not succeed — it would still be almost $15,000 more than any previous new recording Kickstarter campaign has managed to raise! What happens if it doesn’t make it again? Will you then cut down to the “flagship” The Hand on its own for $60,000 or something, and hope third time’s the charm? A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. A sure bet is worth more than a Hail Mary pass.
You know the only film music-related Kickstarter campaign to see the kind of numbers you’re looking for? Not a new recording, but The Jerry Goldsmith Companion, which raised over $171,000 from a whopping 1,444 backers! I’m guessing those were the numbers that made $129,000 seem like a reasonable, achievable goal? But do you know what their original goal actually was? Only $19,000!
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/nightgalleryart/the-jerry-goldsmith-companion/description
And Taylor White of Creature Features has a long track record of delivering on successful, ambitious Kickstarter campaigns going years back.
You ask what you and Robin have to prove. Yes, you’ve done some good reconstruction work — I really enjoy your Highlander suite! And I’ve enjoyed some of the albums Robin has produced for Perseverance. But neither of you has done anything on THIS scale (at least as far as I’m familiar with), and neither of you has any experience with running a crowdfunding campaign before. Running a successful crowdfunding campaign and delivering to backers is where you have zero track record and where it appears like you must prove yourselves before people are more willing to take a chance on more ambitious projects in the future.
Look at Leigh Phillips: even though he had experience working on multiple reconstructions for Tadlow and Prometheus and Intrada, and had involvement in some of their crowdfunding campaigns too, when he decided to “test the waters” with his OWN crowdfunded recording project, he started small… with an 8 minute obscure Jerry Goldsmith score for small orchestra! And it not only succeeded but grew into first a stretch goal and then more and more recording projects from the same GE Theater anthology series, and now after less than two years he’s gotten 79 minutes of Jerry Goldsmith premieres recorded in Prague!
Despite all his experience with recordings, his attitude striking out into crowdfunding on his own wasn’t, “I’m experienced and I have nothing to prove! I’m going to jump right in and make my very first solo Kickstarter project be something super, unprecedentedly expensive!” And now, after almost two years of proving himself, he’s planning on launching his dream project of rerecording Lionheart, an hour and a half long score for large orchestra! Because he’s showed he can deliver with three previous successful Kickstarter campaigns.
Anyway, I’ve said my piece and I’ll stop now since I’ve made the arguments I wanted to make, and further constructive criticism does not really seem welcome. I wish you all the best, and if you relaunch a cut-down version of this I’ll faithfully pledge again (albeit less excitedly if the concert works are removed, and the base tier price stays the same… it would just be the best deal if enough people could pledge to this present campaign for it to be successful!)
Yavar
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Posted: |
Apr 20, 2024 - 7:28 AM
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By: |
c8
(Member)
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I was waffling on whether to post or not but I wanted to provide some constructive feedback from a Horner bottle capper that is part though love and hopefully part helpful
Following this thread has made me feel like I’m in the middle of a high pressure sale, like at a used car dealership.
“Oh you like this car? Oh! But we already applied the paint sealant and True Coat and tinted the windows and put in a cargo mat and now you are playing for these too”
Then he goes to talk to his manger.
“Oh that’s too much? Okay then look at all these extra features that really make it worth it! Well throw in free washes and oil changes for three years!”
Then the manager themself comes out
“Still not enough? We can take out the cargo mat and lower the interest rate!”
All the while these people are chasing you around the lot.
This is how I feel right now. There’s a reason or excuse for everything. Even though it’s being brushed off as a blip, “surprising” us with the concert works when people began questioning the price made this whole thing feel suspicious out the gate. Adding on more performers, having an excuse for every criticism (justified criticism or not), and having so many ladles in the pot, especially in this thread, makes me feel pressured, not reassured. I get it. It’s a passion project. I want badly to hear the concert works. But, from a business perspective it looks bad and feels bad
I came -><- that close to withdrawing my pledge last night. I had the page open. I changed my mind because I do want to see this succeed. But the reality is my trust in this process has been very badly broken by what feels like a rudderless process resulting in more pressure than assurance.
I only speak for myself here. But I wanted to give my feedback on how this thread is making me feel so that if it fails and you try again, you can approach it differently and more thoughtfully
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Posted: |
Apr 20, 2024 - 9:30 AM
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By: |
Timo47
(Member)
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The general problem is that these kind of campaigns will generally only attract a limited number of hard core fans, even if there are millions of Horner fans out there enjoying this music.
Personally, while I own a lot of Horner music, I had never heard of The Hand or The Dresser before this campaign. I can't imagine I'm the only one. So that's an additional hurdle you need to overcome: make people who like Horner interested enough to commit to a project for music they are not at all familiar with.
So if you put the target amount very high, it means this "small" group of people should on average pledge a large amount which is probably not going to happen. Most pledgers also likely have no real understanding of what it takes to get this particular project made and will simply pledge an amount similar to what they have pledged for other similar projects.
I understand that for various reasons it may be impractical to break this project up into smaller ones. Still, I think it will be easier to ask your core fans to pledge a smaller amount in 2 or 3 campaigns then it will be to ask them to commit to a single large amount in one go.
For example, lets say people pledged on average 20$ for each Goldsmith's GE Theater campaign, which is an amount that's "easy" to give. But had the entire project been proposed as a single campaign/recording, would the average have been 60$? Probably not. More likely it would have been closer to 40$ or 50$ max, causing the project to fail to reach its goal. Even if recording it all at once would have reduced the total cost, it may still have required an average pledge of 55$ to get made which you won't get by asking it all at once.
That being said, I've pledged for this Kickstarter and I hope it will reach it goal one way or the other.
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If you compare it to the Nosferatu campaign, people donated an average of about $110. The problem is simply that this project is the most expensive film music campaign and many people don't contribute anything because they don't believe in a positive outcome anyway. I am very confident that splitting up the individual pieces of music would ultimately lead to success.
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Posted: |
Apr 20, 2024 - 12:37 PM
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By: |
Erik Woods
(Member)
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I did notice on Facebook today that for Cinematic Sound Patreon backers, there is a new interview that my podcasting (and IFMCA) colleague Jason Drury did of you and Robin together, talking about this project and even featuring an exclusive excerpt of your mockup for one of the concert pieces, Pentimenti! It's GREAT that you did this and I'm very excited to listen to it soon; I know Cinematic Sound has a wide listenership and this is exactly the sort of thing to reach more potential backers. But again going back to what Bruce said earlier about crowdfunding campaigns: early momentum is important! This would have a lot more impact if planned early and released at the beginning of a campaign, rather than three quarters of the way through it. Maybe if you relaunch this campaign, Cinematic Sound might be willing and able to time a wider release (non-Patreon) of that interview around the same time you launch?
Just a note on this. The episode was scheduled to go on the main RSS feed, however we're currently having server troubles that's preventing me from uploading new shows. I've submitted the support ticket to our hosting company. The last time this happened, it took 2-3 days to fix. Ugh. So, I decided to let my patrons hear the show first. I've also just sent the show to Robin and Nik to share with the Kickstarter backers.
I also agree that if this first version of the Kickstarter does not go through, we would be delighted to assist Robin and his team with any relaunch they do.
-Erik-
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Posted: |
Apr 20, 2024 - 3:59 PM
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By: |
SchiffyM
(Member)
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The general problem is that these kind of campaigns will generally only attract a limited number of hard core fans, even if there are millions of Horner fans out there enjoying this music.
There are not millions of Horner fans.
There are millions of fans of the juggernaut that was Titanic, and the song that catapulted that album to becoming one of the best-selling albums of all time. How many of those people ever bought another album with the name "James Horner" on it? I don't know, but I'd guess a microscopic percentage.
Basically, us. And nearly nobody else.
I'm not saying this to damn Horner, or damn soundtrack fans, or damn the people who created this Kickstarter. But we should have a little perspective.
I can't remember who said it first around these parts – maybe it was Jeff Bond, or Roger Feigelson, or maybe I'm completely wrong – but it truly is a miracle that our favorite soundtrack releases happen at all. Sure, some franchises provide a bit of crossover appeal – a James Bond soundtrack, a Star Trek soundtrack – but even there, the vast vast vast majority of 007 fans or Trekkies have absolutely zero interest in these albums. We are a niche, and getting nichier all the time.
So when you get to films that were fairly obscure even forty years ago, coupled with some concert pieces that have even divided the die-hards here, you're facing long odds to raise a very significant amount of money. And you definitely should not assume there are legions of James Horner fans, because there really aren't. (And yes, one can surely list good sales of a few outliers, presumably Braveheart and maybe Avatar, but again I'd contend that it was the films that, to some large extent, drove those sales.)
And I want to stress – good for Robin Esterhammer et al for trying!! And who knows? They may yet still succeed, if not this time than some other time. I admire dreamers!
It's just a lot of money.
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The campaign just crossed $13,000 from 182 backers. 15 days left to go — that’s only a quarter of THIS campaign length remaining but still half the length of time all previous campaigns have been. There is still time to turn this around, but something in the approach has to change, and soon. I would still really like to get a 140 min. 2CD set for my $35. 
We don’t need a million Horner fans. We don’t even need 5000 Horner fans! 1000 more would do it, I think, at the average rate of support so far. But that’s still about DOUBLE the number of backers of the most-backed of the previous KS campaigns for new film music recordings. (Yes, I realize the Goldsmith bio got 1,444 backers… this is a different animal, supporting a new recording, and there are much more apt comparisons.)
Yavar
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Hello again,
Thank you all for your comments and thoughts.
FYI: The Cinematic Sound Radio interview is available as our 11th Kickstarter Update. https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/robes/james-horners-the-hand-and-the-dresser-complete-re-recordings/posts/4082371
As mentioned in the update: Please accept our apologies for the sound of our voices and foreign English accents!!!!
I will go on writing a response - the last one of such length - based on my/our perspective and original planning for this project, and then I will have to continue with the reconstructions as the most time-consuming part, which is music preparation (scores, parts, etc.) is ahead of me.
Firstly, let me say that I agree 100% with both Thor and c8 on their respective comments.
Regarding Thor’s comment, it is indeed true that we won’t give up and will do everything in our power to make this project a reality.
As for c8’s comment I couldn’t agree more. We spent so much time arguing, and justifying, and then counter-arguing and justifying again – it doesn’t matter if what each one of us said is valid or not – that we are close to lose touch – even worse, make the fans lose interest – with the real objective, which is to see this project through.
I hear Yavar, Thor, c8 and everyone who care to share their thoughts and insights regarding how this massive undertaking can be achieved.
Let me offer my sincerest of apologies in case any of my arguments and/or comments came across as a ‘rudderless’ process and/or attitude resulting from my experience as a musician/orchestrator. It was not, not it will ever be, my/our intention. However, I would kindly ask to have a look at each ‘player’s’ previous experience, only to realize that this is not the first time we’ve all been part of such projects. When it comes to crowdfunding, some of us might be first timers (me included), but not when it comes to the content itself.
When questions were raised about the concert works and the details included in the campaign story, I believe it was Thor, we were asked for full transparency.
The project details we’ve shared a few hours later – which I agree, shouldn’t be a matter of a campaign’s story revision but included straight out of the gate, something for which we/I apologize, as it was indeed a massive omission on our part (not on purpose) – was everything we have been working on for the past few months prior to the campaign’s launch.
Obviously, the 6-figure amount wasn’t received with applause from the fans, and understandably so. Again, by means of transparency, this amount includes the costs for the ENTIRE project, from beginning to end, as it is a very expensive one.
The initial idea was to record the two film scores and have as a bonus track one of the concert works, via stretch goal. The same idea applied to the second leg of the project with the sci-fi score re-recording, The Lady in Red (which sadly, no one informed us of its release) and another bonus concert score.
The full catalogue of concert scores became available to us, and upon reviewing them we thought that if we don’t record them, we might miss the opportunity to do so in the future, as we figure that no fan would be interested in a James Horner early concert works only album. Based on that thought, we discussed the possibility of offering the 4 film scores and 14 of the early concert works (divided in 2 scores+7 concert works at a time), as two 2-CD sets, OR single CDs for the film scores and only digital release of the concert works.
To answer c8’s ‘high pressure sale’ comment, the inclusion of these guest artists, Dolby Atmos mixing, and all the perks we’ve offered was always part of our original planning. We had to make sure everything is confirmed before announcing it. It was never an attempt to justify the cost post-launch.
It is now obvious that going ahead with the most ambitious and expensive option was a miscalculation on our part. We believed that it would be an exciting idea and fans will happily welcome it. The downside was the cost, which from the very start of the project it was evident that it will have to be fully funded by the campaign. We took a risk. From the looks of it, as of this moment, it doesn’t seem that we’ll make it (even though things seem to be moving forward, albeit at a slow pace, lately).
The alternative we’ve been timidly discussing, is that I’ve previously mentioned as a response to Yavar’s message.
We will have to drop the concert works entirely and focus on the 2 film scores. A shorter (30-day) campaign – with a significantly lower goal closer to maybe $70-80K, which we think will be most likely to succeed – probably around the first week of May, and plan to record the days we have already booked, towards the end of June, 2024.
This amount will cover the FULL costs of the project, including: recording costs (approx. $45K), music reconstruction | preparation, conducting, editing, mixing (stereo & Dolby Atmos), guest artists, remote sessions for the Blaster Beam, travel/accommodation, liner notes, artwork, and Kickstarter fees (which is I believe close to 10%)?
There is a thought to include one concert work at a time as a stretch goals, but lets cross that bridge when we get to it, as it won't look good to commit on something we might not be able to deliver in the end.
We would like to NOT have to drop neither The Hand, nor The Dresser and proceed recording them both, as Perseverance Records first major re-recording project. We strongly believe that having these 2 scores side by side, are indicative of James Horner’s compositional range; they are beautifully written, with their respective challenges, and each representative of their respective genres.
To answer Yavar’s comment regarding his flagship/albatross comment: as mentioned in the campaign, The Dresser is particularly sentimental to the Horner family and as such it will hold a special place in this recording. However, The Hand is the biggest, boldest, and most challenging of the two, and as far as I’m concerned, it’s been a fan favorite as a potential future release for a while now.
I’m currently working on the music, with previews already published for your review – with more to follow – and after painstakingly reconstructing these two scores, I’d like to say that no composer went to the very heart of the raw emotion than Horner, and it would be such a shame to not see them both “take flight”.
Again, we thank you all for your comments, thoughts, and support. It is very encouraging to see that you're rooting and 'pushing' - especially in the last few comments - for this project to happen.
Wishing you all an amazing new week.
N.
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