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Posted: |
Feb 11, 2022 - 11:08 PM
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By: |
SchiffyM
(Member)
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Would you prefer musical noodling? They're simply not as strong thematically speaking compared to Williams 70's and 80's efforts. Modern sensibilities certainly has something to do with it. The Amazing Spider-Man had some nice themes but the action music was very much sound design to my recollection and not Horner's usual cinematic style. I was hoping for a Rocketeer style score and it was far from that. Compare TASM to Wolf Totem, which was full of melody and thematic progression.
I guess we just disagree, which of course is fine. Of course different movies have different needs, and of course, as you say, sensibilities change. I think this happens for myriad reasons. Some of it is just that styles change for music, just as they change for haircuts and collars and wallpaper. Some of it is technological – sound systems and sound mixes are much more nuanced than they used to be, and you can hear music now even if it doesn't shout. Some of it, yes, can be chalked up to test audiences who are encouraged to comment on things they noticed, which can mean that "I noticed the music" is a bad thing.
In any event, I think Reeve's contentions about Zimmer and his having "way more supporters" than Williams are… well, I think they're wrongheaded, how about that?
I also can't agree that (to cite one that Reeve cited) The War Horse could possibly be more overt in its thematic scoring than it is. I just don't agree that that score is not as strong thematically as Williams' 80s scores. The BFG is in some ways a more reserved Williams score, but still full of melody, I would say as much or more so than his 80s Always (which is tonally similar). Artists develop over time, certainly, but in the case of Williams, I happen to think the last decade has had some scores as strong as any of his output. (Which is not to say I don't think he's had any missteps. The Post leaves me mostly pretty cold.)
Look, it all comes down to opinions, and these happen to be mine.
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Posted: |
Feb 12, 2022 - 7:34 AM
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By: |
Solium
(Member)
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Would you prefer musical noodling? They're simply not as strong thematically speaking compared to Williams 70's and 80's efforts. Modern sensibilities certainly has something to do with it. The Amazing Spider-Man had some nice themes but the action music was very much sound design to my recollection and not Horner's usual cinematic style. I was hoping for a Rocketeer style score and it was far from that. Compare TASM to Wolf Totem, which was full of melody and thematic progression.
I guess we just disagree, which of course is fine. Of course different movies have different needs, and of course, as you say, sensibilities change. I think this happens for myriad reasons. Some of it is just that styles change for music, just as they change for haircuts and collars and wallpaper. Some of it is technological – sound systems and sound mixes are much more nuanced than they used to be, and you can hear music now even if it doesn't shout. Some of it, yes, can be chalked up to test audiences who are encouraged to comment on things they noticed, which can mean that "I noticed the music" is a bad thing.
In any event, I think Reeve's contentions about Zimmer and his having "way more supporters" than Williams are… well, I think they're wrongheaded, how about that?
I also can't agree that (to cite one that Reeve cited) The War Horse could possibly be more overt in its thematic scoring than it is. I just don't agree that that score is not as strong thematically as Williams' 80s scores. The BFG is in some ways a more reserved Williams score, but still full of melody, I would say as much or more so than his 80s Always (which is tonally similar). Artists develop over time, certainly, but in the case of Williams, I happen to think the last decade has had some scores as strong as any of his output. (Which is not to say I don't think he's had any missteps. The Post leaves me mostly pretty cold.)
Look, it all comes down to opinions, and these happen to be mine.
Okay, I listened to War Horse again this morning and I'm willing to make a retraction. It's neither sound design (though I don't think I ever said that) or musical noodling. (for the most part) It just didn't grab me like his earlier classics.
I standby TASM styling was forced on Horner by the director or studio. It's clearly not his style of action adventure music. And I recall in an interview were he said he was boxed into a corner creatively. (I'm paraphrasing)
Who's more popular, Williams or Zimmer? I have no idea.
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Posted: |
Feb 12, 2022 - 7:41 AM
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By: |
Thor
(Member)
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Both Zimmer and Williams fill concert halls around the world. Who's more popular, is difficult to say. Maybe Zimmer has greater crossover appeal. I don't think Williams will ever do Coachella, for example. 
WAR HORSE is a wonderful score; one of the few post-2005 scores by Williams I really like. That and THE POST. Otherwise, there's a lot of standard Americana and/or 'cellular'/motivic stuff, as previously mentioned, which doesn't quite gel with me (even though they're fine scores...it's just that Williams' bar is so insanely high).
For the remainder of Williams' life (and my life, for that matter, should it be shorter than Williams'), I hope I'll get to hear his older self, but at his age, I take whatever I can get. Including whatever and however INDY 5 sounds.
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Posted: |
Feb 12, 2022 - 9:24 AM
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By: |
Solium
(Member)
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Both Zimmer and Williams fill concert halls around the world. Who's more popular, is difficult to say. Maybe Zimmer has greater crossover appeal. I don't think Williams will ever do Coachella, for example.
WAR HORSE is a wonderful score; one of the few post-2005 scores by Williams I really like. That and THE POST. Otherwise, there's a lot of standard Americana and/or 'cellular'/motivic stuff, as previously mentioned, which doesn't quite gel with me (even though they're fine scores...it's just that Williams' bar is so insanely high).
For the remainder of Williams' life (and my life, for that matter, should it be shorter than Williams'), I hope I'll get to hear his older self, but at his age, I take whatever I can get. Including whatever and however INDY 5 sounds.
Agreed.
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I, too, have to wonder what some people are hearing when they play scores like WAR HORSE and BFG and LINCOLN (even TIN-TIN & THE BOOK THIEF).).
These are great scores by a master film composer, in no way similar to the factory produced programmed style Zimmer has taken the medium to.
They were never going to sound like the scores John Williams wrote during the 70s and 80s, nor should they.
James Horner's latter day scores deviated from his 80s scores in many ways.
Jerry Goldsmith's last 10+ years worth of scores lacked much of the skill and ingenuity that filled his 60s, 70s and 80s output.
Times moved on.
But they were all still the products of their composers and their individual styles.
Anyone hearing dumbed down music from John Williams these past 15 years just hasn't been listening properly.
amen
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