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Posted: |
Feb 23, 2008 - 8:44 AM
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By: |
Rubyglass
(Member)
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Gunnar says:
Above all, you have explained what doesn’t appeal to you.
That is not what I am implying. The way you describe your dislikes is not in terms of your personal taste, but in terms of Williams’ shortcomings. For example:
Also, your introduction to this thread was:
” Posting here has been a bit eye-opening for me, because I wasn't aware that John Williams was this highly respected within this circle.”
What’s so surprising about Williams earning respect for his work on a film music message board? With your following reference to your musical friends who all make fun of Williams, it all comes across like you’re wondering: “How in the world can you people like this?” If this were strictly about personal taste, and not about a perceived quality (or lack of it) in Williams’ music, the appreciation he garners here shouldn’t be so much of a surprise for you.
And I would suggest we leave kitchen psychology like “defensive reflexes” out of this.
______
Williams's shortcomings are my personal taste. They have been and will always be the same things, and the same is true of anyone who has ever expressed that they like or dislike something or that any piece of art is "good" or bad".
However, subcultures are by their very nature formed around certain shared likes and dislikes and artistic values. Among the kind of musicians I hang out with, Williams usually falls under a shared definition of "bad", and I was merely surprised to see that this opinion is not shared by the film score community, which functions with a different set of values to the one I am used to.
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Among the kind of musicians I hang out with, Williams usually falls under a shared definition of "bad", and I was merely surprised to see that this opinion is not shared by the film score community, which functions with a different set of values to the one I am used to.
Well, I daresay that the "set of values" of the professional film score community is probably more informed.
What kinds of musicians are your friends? Because among the professional musicians I know and have spoken to (composers, players, etc.) John Williams is held in high esteem. I attended the SPFM Career Achievement Award ceremony when John Williams was honored, and among those who showed up to pay tribute were Jerry Goldsmith, Henry Mancini, Lalo Schifrin, Thomas Newman, Ernest Gold, David Raksin, etc.
Awards don't really mean anything. Popularity doesn't necessarily mean anything. But the admiration of informed peers -- that does mean something.
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I agree with most of your posts PW, but this strikes me as one of the most intellectually sound yet ultimately biggest rationalizations to cover up Ottman's lack of music chops. I don't think it had anything to do with understanding the narrative- I simply think he was just not musically competant enough to work in that advanced harmonic language. But that's just my own supposition on the matter.
Fair enough, but understand that I have no real reason to make excuses for Ottman other than liking the way he scored that scene. His music in general is extremely hit-or-miss for me, and it's rare that I find anything from him that really stands out. Even some of his choices in Superman Returns left me cold. But his alteration of the love theme really moved me, partially because it was such a surprise. However simpler it is harmonically, surely it would have been much easier for him to simply leave the chords alone and transcribe the theme directly from Williams. The fact that he was brave enough to change it, however unsuccessful it may have been to many ears, really resonated with me. There have been so many remakes and sequels that require other composers to use Williams' music, and almost all of them seem to musically walk on eggshells around any of his sacred themes. It was refreshing at least to find a composer who realized that music doesn't have to be a static thing.
Pedestrian Wolf
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I agree with most of your posts PW, but this strikes me as one of the most intellectually sound yet ultimately biggest rationalizations to cover up Ottman's lack of music chops. I don't think it had anything to do with understanding the narrative- I simply think he was just not musically competant enough to work in that advanced harmonic language. But that's just my own supposition on the matter.
Fair enough, but understand that I have no real reason to make excuses for Ottman other than liking the way he scored that scene. His music in general is extremely hit-or-miss for me, and it's rare that I find anything from him that really stands out. Even some of his choices in Superman Returns left me cold. But his alteration of the love theme really moved me, partially because it was such a surprise. However simpler it is harmonically, surely it would have been much easier for him to simply leave the chords alone and transcribe the theme directly from Williams. The fact that he was brave enough to change it, however unsuccessful it may have been to many ears, really resonated with me. There have been so many remakes and sequels that require other composers to use Williams' music, and almost all of them seem to musically walk on eggshells around anything of his sacred themes. It was refreshing at least to find a composer who realized that music doesn't have to be a static thing.
Pedestrian Wolf
I agree. But I found it frustrating and unnecessary that he used that theme as his kernel instead of doing his own.
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There have been so many remakes and sequels that require other composers to use Williams' music, and almost all of them seem to musically walk on eggshells around anything of his sacred themes. It was refreshing at least to find a composer who realized that music doesn't have to be a static thing.
You are my new best friend for today 
Haha, well thanks mate. I'll savor it while it lasts. ;-)
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Because his stuff sounds just like classical music to me, which I am not too interested in.
Schindler's List is good though.
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Posted: |
Jul 15, 2021 - 10:36 PM
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By: |
The Shadow
(Member)
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Because his stuff sounds just like classical music to me, which I am not too interested in.
Schindler's List is good though.
Williams film music didn't sound that classical before STAR WARS. There was a time when Williams did write music the way Goldsmith did, developping theme throughout the score, using leitmotives, his music was more gritty.
All my favorite Williams scores (except SUPERMAN,CE3K, DRACULA and E.T.) are pre-STAR WARS!
I mean JAWS, TOWERING INFERNO, MIDWAY, EIGER SANCTION and the best of all and totally under-rated: BLACK SUNDAY!
Planting the Charges long track from THE TOWERING INFERNO is pure Goldsmith way of dramatic construction.
I have no musical knowledge to attest this technically but I feel it like that.
I really think that Williams hasn't been better that when he did Jerry Goldsmith kind of scoring and BLACK SUNDAY is the ultimate example of this...It had nothing to do with his later symphonic widely orchestrated STAR WARS 19th century influenced score and all his sequels, except THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK which is more gritty....and the best STAR WARS score ever (Asteroid field, Battle on Hoth etc)
As a matter of fact, John Frankenheimer's BLACK SUNDAY should have been scored by Goldsmith if he had not encountered a scheduling conflict.
Maybe Frankenheimer asked Williams to do something «that sounds Goldsmith» or at least that sounds gritty I don't know. Nobody would dare to ask anything like this to maestro John Williams since...but before STAR WARS, maybe it was still possible. It would be very interesting to hear what Williams has to say about the BLACK SUNDAY film music process, if he remembers.
I adore Williams and he is endlessly my second favorite composer after Goldsmith; he is rather good but...when he does gritty stuff he is even more incredible. Last examples of that trend: THE LOST WORLD and WAR OF THE WORLDS.
I may also like very much his fresh stuff like ACCIDENTAL TOURIST, STANLEY AND IRIS, SABRINA, THE RIVER or CATCH ME IF YOU CAN...far better than his loud and 1st degree Amercicana patriotic output like FAR AND AWAY or THE PATRIOT. Even some the scores to HARRY POTTER and INDIANA JONES adventure stuff can be boring at times.....
I am afraid to say that, for John Williams and film music style history and evolution in general, I so wish STAR WARS just did never happen...because it changed it all and killed the gritty and avant-garde stuff.
Who may share these thaughts here...?
Am I alone to feel like this, that's the question.
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out of curiosity have we had dialogue about why I don't like
Goldsmith scores or Morricone scores? just askin'
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"Why don't you like Williams's scores?"
----------------
I do like 'em.
In fact, I LOVE 'EM!!
Phew!
I ACED this Test, Baby!
So do I. A treasure
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