 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I'm sorry - but I also take offense to people who walk through my house in muddy shoes and if anyone can come up with a more apt analogy for Thor, I need to write it down.
It's not your house. It's a public building.
There's no real difference between "C+C is good" and "C+C is bad". Neither are an absolute God-given truth. Some scores are too short on CD, missing out on a lot of good music. Some scores are too long, including absolutely everything regardless of whether it's musically interesting or even relevant. Maybe they're too short because of re-use fees, composer preference, incomplete masters. Maybe they're too long because it's economically viable, composer preference, there's a demand for every last note. But neither is always true. And neither side should be crucified by the other for not agreeing. To love C+C unreservedly as a basic principle is no better than to reject is as a basic principle.
For my part I prefer to take it on a case-by-case basis: there's room for expansion on, say, MOONRAKER or FIRST KNIGHT, both of which are missing huge amounts of music. I don't feel the same is true for, say, STAR TREK: THE MOTION PICTURE or CASINO ROYALE which are, to me, more than adequately respresented on disc already. That they're missing 25 seconds here or 17 seconds there doesn't bother me that much.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
 |
Posted: |
Aug 2, 2009 - 9:51 AM
|
|
|
|
By: |
Trekfan
(Member)
|
I remember the first time I saw ST: III in the theater and heard the music for the burning up Enterprise. My first thought was "PROKOFIEV--IN--SPACE!!!" (like "Pigs in Space" from the Muppet Show). I love Horner's music for the film, including how it worked in this scene, but this passage was a direct lift and only slightly altered version of Romeo & Juliet. I'm sure most wouldn't notice it, especially playing in the movie, but since R & J is my favorite Prokofiev and Prokofiev is one of my favorite composers, well....
I once wrote a somewhat tongue-in-cheek essay for a film music class "justifying" this Horner lift (just to see if it could be rationalized, and how far), theorizing that Horner is actually doing this in a bit of a conscious nod (or even dry, slightly jokey reference) that Kirk's looking up misty-eyed against the Enterprise streaking through the sky in its fiery death means the end of the great love - or "calling" - of his life ("Your first, best destiny is commanding a starship. Anything else is a waste.") That for the Kirk character, this has all the emotional resonance within him that a death in the Shakespeare tale of two young lovers might.
I don't know - you can make the case for many things in analyzing music's relationship against the visuals. Did Horner just think "Gosh, I'm running out of time on these cues and really need some material, pronto!" and borrow from the Prokofiev? Did he feel insecure for scoring such key moments in the film and lost faith in his own abilities? Is he really trying to make a larger statement about love and loss? He's spoken about not being a "Trek" fan, particularly, and how he was "reluctant" to do "Star Trek 3" - is he subtlely making fun of Kirk's devotion/career in watching what's just an ILM model and matte element burn up? All these theories could be entertained.
Somebody in this forum mentioned Horner's own "Boy In The Striped Pyjamas" and how it utilizes the "Nazi" motif from "Swing Kids" and there's moments looking up at the sky through the treetops that actually align with Horner previously scoring this exact type of visual and he had thought Horner actually "codifies" those moments with a particular musical language, conscious or not - sort of a "Hmm, to me, sky through trees with wind blowing is always like this". If I entertain that theory, I might think of a painter - you know that old PBS painting instructional show? Everytime the guy would draw, say, water, he'd start with similar techniques, brushes, and a roughly identical color palette because that was the way he, as an artist, did "water" in his painting vocabulary - the gestures, the strokes, the vision of water. It didn't matter if it was meant to be a still pond or a churning ocean, or the sky was dark and cloudy or crystal blue, the water as painted was done via the same basic technique and slight variations and tailoring were done appropriate to the painting.
People have been debating Horner, and these kinds of things, for years, so nobody's going to "solve" it in this thread, but they're fun things to think about. And heck, having them in a thread devoted to a wonderful, expanded CD release that even exists at all is a real privilege.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Wow! More than 19000 people have clicked on this thread in less than two weeks. Either that or the same person has clicked 19000 times. Either way, I think that must be some kind of record.
I wonder what Lukas will do with the money from all the sales (I assume this item is selling). Retire? Put out another Oliver Nelson album to please just me?
|
|
|
|
|
|
I'm not the first person to write about this, but I just wanted to also chime in that the improved sound quality on this release has me noticing extremely tiny orchestration details that were barely discernible (or not at all) or muddy before, and it's great.
I agree. There are little bits here and there that have been surprising me since I started listening to this edition. "Enterprise Clears Moorings," "Battle in the Mutara Nebula" and "Genesis Countdown" all have these little details throughout that were barely discernible on The Astral Symphony and invisible on the GNP Crescendo disc. And, of course, when the $#!+ hits the fan in "Surprise Attack," it hits hard. The brass on the album really cuts!
Thor will be Thor will be Thor. Love him, hate him, or be indifferent, but he's not going to change. Unless you want every one of these threads to turn into "Thor's preferences" discussions, it's easiest to just chuckle at his predictable "anti-C&C" comments, roll your eyes and say to yourself, "That's our Thor!"
Works for me, anyways, but god help me, I actually happen to like the guy.
Yep. As usual, the furor about Thor comes more from people talking about him and his preferences than the man himself. If everyone just stayed on topic, this nonsense wouldn't keep happening.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: |
Aug 2, 2009 - 2:04 PM
|
|
|
|
By: |
Josh
(Member)
|
Yep. As usual, the furor about Thor comes more from people talking about him and his preferences than the man himself. If everyone just stayed on topic, this nonsense wouldn't keep happening.
Yes, lets continue to ignore the elephant in the room, the bull in the china shop, the dinosaur eating children in the elementary school. Let us avoid that which we all speak of off-the-board and agree with behind other people's backs.
I'm not sure which is the greater cancer: Thor or the spineless avoidance policy maintained specifically for him.
"...the dinosaur eating children in the elementary school." LOL. LeHah, you certainly have a way with colorful metaphors.
To me, complaints about Thor are just as annoying as his practice of incessantly repeating the same opinion/position, but I'm not going to join a crusade to stop either, because life's too short to get all worked up about such trivialities, and besides, there's not enough Pepto Bismol in the medicine cabinet.
P.S. THIS RELEASE IS FREAKIN' FANTASTIC! The sound quality is much clearer than the previous CD, and has a greater dynamic range (love that bass). The additional cues really help to fill out the musical "story," so we get the whole novel rather than just the Cliff's Notes. To those who prefer the abbreviated version, I'd still recommend getting the FSM CD for the improved sound quality. After all, that's why the good lord invented remote controls and programmable CD players. Oh yeah, great liner notes and artwork, too.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I seem to remember being told that the version of the beginning of "Stealing the Enterprise" was an alternate (either a later date, or later in the same session) after the producers (Bennett?) did not like the strings. Ford Thaxton would know -- I think he was there!
Lukas
|
|
|
|
|
|
But why must he post the same opinion over and over again in threads about new releases?
He states his opinion. It only ever becomes an issue when people feel obligated to start arguing with him.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know what's fun about ignorance? You get to enjoy other things. I have a very limited knowledge of classical music, so I am unfamiliar with many of the works Horner uses in his scores. Therefore, their use never bothers me.
:-)
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
