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 Posted:   Dec 3, 2024 - 1:23 AM   
 By:   lostinscores   (Member)

As a composer I would always insist on having a security tape made for me.

 
 Posted:   Dec 3, 2024 - 2:39 AM   
 By:   Bill Carson, Earl of Poncey   (Member)

"As a composer" I would always insist on having a security tape made for me.

So you are saying you are a composer? Or do you really mean "If I was a composer" ?

 
 
 Posted:   Dec 3, 2024 - 6:36 AM   
 By:   lostinscores   (Member)

"As a composer" I would always insist on having a security tape made for me.

So you are saying you are a composer? Or do you really mean "If I was a composer" ?


Both… some kind of. smile

 
 
 Posted:   Dec 3, 2024 - 6:51 AM   
 By:   Hurdy Gurdy   (Member)

"It's important to note that Ridley Scott did not have the clout back then he has now. His only hit movie had been ALIEN, and his last film, BLADE RUNNER, while by now an undisputed classic, had been a flop... and now LEGEND threatened to become a flop as well"
--------------------------
I remember this LEGEND 'score removal debacle' was happening around the same time as another director (Terry Gilliam) was also facing a similar situation, with another 'poor-testing' film (BRAZIL).
But whereas Scott rolled over and let the producers trample over the HUGELY IMPORTANT score, that added so much to the vibe and atmosphere of the movie, Gilliam fought tooth and nail to MAKE SURE Michael Kamen's music did not suffer a similar fate (even taking out FULL PAGE ads in Variety to champion MK's vital contribution to his off-beat film).

 
 Posted:   Dec 3, 2024 - 7:09 AM   
 By:   EdG   (Member)

LEGEND - in its shorter "European cut" - had already opened in Europe and tanked in 1985 and Universal was anticipating a similar outcome in the States and elsewhere when they made the decision to delay the release to 1986 and recut the film with new music. Fox had handled the film internationally and Universal had the US marketing and distribution, so they had Fox's failure to motivate them to try something - anything - to avoid a similar outcome.

Sid Sheinberg saw himself as a defender and promoter of talented filmmakers and his overall record at Universal supports that, particularly his steadfast support of Steven Spielberg when he was an unknown and struggling with SUGARLAND EXPRESS and JAWS. Still, it was his suggestion to recut 1941 rather than dump it into the marketplace when early test screenings were negative. He also tried to recut BRAZIL without the filmmaker's consent as mentioned. None of these recuts were successful because the basic conception of the film was what audiences were rejecting and each of these films was expensive for what they were, though to different degrees.

 
 Posted:   Dec 3, 2024 - 9:03 AM   
 By:   Bill Carson, Earl of Poncey   (Member)

"As a composer" I would always insist on having a security tape made for me.

So you are saying you are a composer? Or do you really mean "If I was a composer" ?


Both… some kind of. smile


Really? Bonafide paid or messing on a computer at home? Or just another fantasist dropping hints hoping to improve street cred on here? No offence, but we've had all types over the years wink

 
 Posted:   Dec 3, 2024 - 2:22 PM   
 By:   LordDalek   (Member)

Gonna bump this so I don't start a new thread.

By the number of "lost" scores that have emerged in the last few weeks, does anyone with more knowledge than I have any idea how actually lost the Goldsmith Legend tapes are? Is it one of those rumors or actual knowledge the tapes are missing?

Asking for a friend who'd love nothing more than a complete Legend with alternates and Goldsmith's emergency synth rescue attempts.


Well the master tapes for Conan The Barbarian (ANOTHER long lost score for many years) were at Universal so I guess there's always a chance?

But then again...Goldsmith seems to have the worst luck with preservation (see Chinatown and most of his 60s output).

 
 Posted:   Dec 3, 2024 - 2:49 PM   
 By:   Nicolai P. Zwar   (Member)

LEGEND - in its shorter "European cut"

Agree with a lot you said, but have to correct that the European cut of LEGEND was longer.

 
 Posted:   Dec 3, 2024 - 2:56 PM   
 By:   Nicolai P. Zwar   (Member)

"It's important to note that Ridley Scott did not have the clout back then he has now. His only hit movie had been ALIEN, and his last film, BLADE RUNNER, while by now an undisputed classic, had been a flop... and now LEGEND threatened to become a flop as well"
--------------------------
I remember this LEGEND 'score removal debacle' was happening around the same time as another director (Terry Gilliam) was also facing a similar situation, with another 'poor-testing' film (BRAZIL).
But whereas Scott rolled over and let the producers trample over the HUGELY IMPORTANT score, that added so much to the vibe and atmosphere of the movie, Gilliam fought tooth and nail to MAKE SURE Michael Kamen's music did not suffer a similar fate (even taking out FULL PAGE ads in Variety to champion MK's vital contribution to his off-beat film).



And while BRAZIL is a better movie than LEGEND, Ridley Scott is far richer than Terry Gilliam. Either is fine. You just have to set your priorities.

 
 Posted:   Dec 4, 2024 - 1:14 AM   
 By:   Dadid L   (Member)

And he produces really good vine in his "Mas des Infermières" in Luberon (especially his "Chevalier" red wine). But is that the point? I wouldn't allow myself to judge him without knowing the ins and outs of this wreck, but obviously the rejection of this score was his biggest mistake.

 
 
 Posted:   Dec 4, 2024 - 1:40 AM   
 By:   Hurdy Gurdy   (Member)

"And while BRAZIL is a better movie than LEGEND, Ridley Scott is far richer than Terry Gilliam. Either is fine. You just have to set your priorities"
----------------------
Indeed.
One is a VERY RICH journeyman 'director for hire', the other is a maverick and TRUE auteur who will NOT compromise for HIS ART.

 
 Posted:   Dec 4, 2024 - 1:56 AM   
 By:   Nicolai P. Zwar   (Member)

"And while BRAZIL is a better movie than LEGEND, Ridley Scott is far richer than Terry Gilliam. Either is fine. You just have to set your priorities"
----------------------
Indeed.
One is a VERY RICH journeyman 'director for hire', the other is a maverick and TRUE auteur who will NOT compromise for HIS ART.


And as I said, both is fine.

It is interesting to note though that Ridley Scott has nevertheless more great movies under his belt than Terry Gilliam, even if LEGEND is not among them and that 1985 point goes to Gilliam. Because Ridley Scott gets his films financed whereas Gilliam has trouble getting his projects financed.

However, I don't want to play off Ridley Scott and Terry Gilliam against each other, they are both great artists and have done some great movies and some not so great ones and I sure like both. And good for Gilliam that he stood up for BRAZIL, because that movie is terrific.

 
 
 Posted:   Dec 4, 2024 - 3:08 AM   
 By:   Hurdy Gurdy   (Member)

"It is interesting to note though that Ridley Scott has nevertheless more great movies under his belt than Terry Gilliam..."
------------------
While it's all VERY subjective, this is where I completely disagree.
Gilliam has made some TOP NOTCH films (12 MONKEYS is a masterpiece and efforts like MP/HOLY GRAIL, BRAZIL, FISHER KING and TIME BANDITS are Very Good), while Sir Ridders pretty much peaked for me during the late 70s/early 80s.
Looking at his output, I consider so much of it overrated or bland/meh, since the 90s and beyond (with some - HANNIBAL, ROBIN HOOD, LAST DUEL, ALIEN sequels - outright laughable).

 
 
 Posted:   Dec 4, 2024 - 3:24 AM   
 By:   moolik   (Member)

I love LEGEND .The movie for the gorgeous cinematography and levish art direction for the forest scenes and the ingredible make up..for Tim Currys character and of course Goldsmiths music.Somehow I consider it as a Xmas movie.


 
 
 Posted:   Dec 4, 2024 - 3:26 AM   
 By:   Thor   (Member)

Gilliam is a fine filmmaker (most of the time, anyway), but doesn't hold a candle to Scott -- IMO the second greatest film director who ever lived.

 
 
 Posted:   Dec 4, 2024 - 3:44 AM   
 By:   Hurdy Gurdy   (Member)

"I love LEGEND .The movie for the gorgeous cinematography and levish art direction for the forest scenes and the ingredible make up..for Tim Currys character and of course Goldsmiths music.Somehow I consider it as a Xmas movie"
---------------------------------
Indeed.
Despite its complete lack of drive or excitement, there are elements of LEGEND that are among the BEST STUFF Scott has ever done (on a par with his career best ALIEN and BLADE RUNNER).
The look and feel is pure Fairy Tale magic.
It's like a beautiful bauble that is a wonder to behold, even though it doesn't actually do anything.
The make-up FX by Rob Bottin are superb (as is Tim Curry as Darkness) and we all know the Jerry Goldsmith score is amongst his GREATEST EVER work.
Mia Sara is beautiful as the Princess and even Cruise is okay as Jack (despite them working with the thinnest/weakest script ever committed to paper).
There is SO MUCH to admire about LEGEND, despite it being a complete failure as a film.
I find it a unique, perplexing experience.

I am only speaking about the Goldsmith scored European cut.
I've tried to watch the USA Tangerine Dream scored version, but cannot get through it.
All the magic has been bled out of it.

 
 Posted:   Dec 4, 2024 - 6:30 AM   
 By:   spielboy   (Member)

Gilliam is a fine filmmaker (most of the time, anyway), but doesn't hold a candle to Scott -- IMO the second greatest film director who ever lived.

Tony? wouldnt praise him myself so high, but ok...

 
 
 Posted:   Dec 4, 2024 - 6:51 AM   
 By:   Ado   (Member)

Legend is indeed one of the most gorgeous films ever made, there really is nothing like that world he created with those talented craftsmen. Visually and musically it is astonishing throughout.

 
 Posted:   Dec 4, 2024 - 7:51 AM   
 By:   Nicolai P. Zwar   (Member)

"It is interesting to note though that Ridley Scott has nevertheless more great movies under his belt than Terry Gilliam..."
------------------
While it's all VERY subjective, this is where I completely disagree.


That's fine, and yes, we can of course disagree, no problem.

I think Ridley Scott has made three masterpieces that I consider among a pool of "best all time movies".
They are
1. Alien
2. Blade Runner
3. Kingdom of Heaven (but only the director's cut, perhaps the most "essential" director's cut ever made)

I like these more than any movie Terry Gilliam made, since these are all time favorites of mine, but yeah, it's subjective.

Terry Gilliams has also made some top notch masterpieces, I fully agree with you. I would list:
1. Brazil
2. 12 Monkeys

These two are very good movies, though I personally like the top drawer Ridley Scott movies even more than the top drawer Terry Gilliam movies, but yeah, that is subjective and anyone can have favorites as they see fit.

As for the rest of the filmography, there are both good and not so good movies from both directors. Gilliams has TIME BANDITS and THE FISHER KING (both good movies, though I remember Fisher King has some issues... haven't seen that in a long time), Scott has GLADIATOR, THELMA & LOUISE, BLACK RAIN, THE DUELLISTS, also all good movies. Gilliam has FEAR AND LOATHING IN LAS VEGAS (which I haven't actually seen, so I don't know how good or bad that movie is, but it sure sounds interesting... I just never got around to watching it... like I also have not seen Scott's ROBIN HOOD, so I can't say much about it.) Yep, Scott has done some duds, I didn't care for HANNIBAL, but Gilliams's BROTHERS GRIMM wasn't exactly a masterpiece either. Scott's HOUSE OF GUCCI and THE MARTIAN were both well made and watchable though, so it's not as if Scott's all "yesterday".

I am not arguing against Terry Gilliam, a really interesting director, but some of his movies are bloated, indulgent and lack focus, so it's not as if he is all masterpieces, no matter how much control he retains. But again, I like Terry Gilliam, I would have LOVED to see his original REAL version of DON QUIXOTE (the making of that film was practically a DON QUIXOTE story of its own)... I mean, who was better to film DON QUIXOTE than Terry Gilliam? But at least we got THE MAN WHO KILLED DON QUIXOTE and a documentary out of it.

 
 Posted:   Dec 4, 2024 - 8:08 AM   
 By:   Nicolai P. Zwar   (Member)

"I love LEGEND .The movie for the gorgeous cinematography and levish art direction for the forest scenes and the ingredible make up..for Tim Currys character and of course Goldsmiths music.Somehow I consider it as a Xmas movie"
---------------------------------
Indeed.
Despite its complete lack of drive or excitement, there are elements of LEGEND that are among the BEST STUFF Scott has ever done (on a par with his career best ALIEN and BLADE RUNNER).
The look and feel is pure Fairy Tale magic.
It's like a beautiful bauble that is a wonder to behold, even though it doesn't actually do anything.
The make-up FX by Rob Bottin are superb (as is Tim Curry as Darkness) and we all know the Jerry Goldsmith score is amongst his GREATEST EVER work.
Mia Sara is beautiful as the Princess and even Cruise is okay as Jack (despite them working with the thinnest/weakest script ever committed to paper).
There is SO MUCH to admire about LEGEND, despite it being a complete failure as a film.
I find it a unique, perplexing experience.

I am only speaking about the Goldsmith scored European cut.
I've tried to watch the USA Tangerine Dream scored version, but cannot get through it.
All the magic has been bled out of it.



Ha, fully agree with everything you said about LEGEND. The movie never comes together, but there are elements in it that are terrific. The moment for example when Tim Curry's Darkness steps out of the mirror, looking like the classical children's fairy tale Devil, that was just wow.

 
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