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 Posted:   Jul 18, 2021 - 9:47 AM   
 By:   First Breath   (Member)

I see the point you're making - it's fair, though quite subtle, especially since JNH doesn't always use the elements you describe.

No of course JNH doesn't always use the rock instruments with orchestra, but at least he used to do it a lot in the 90s, and I mostly enjoyed that. And he does it more than Williams.......


I like “The Fugitive” which has some of what you’re describing, and I like “Waterworld” but I’m wondering if you like that one too? “Waterworld” is basically a Williams-orchestra score, even down to the use of non-traditional instruments and subtle use of synths to sweeten parts of the orchestra.

I’m wondering too if you’re a fan of Goldsmith? He has a lot of scores that use the orchestra non-traditionally and are filled with synths. And to check against - did you like Shore’s “Lord of the Rings”? Another traditional use of orchestra albeit with quite an expanded inclusion of instruments from around the world.


I like the swimming cue in Waterworld. But that's electronic.

I like Goldsmith more than Williams, but not a big fan.

Didn't really like LOTR.

 
 Posted:   Jul 18, 2021 - 10:00 AM   
 By:   Totoro   (Member)

I like Goldsmith more than Williams, but not a big fan.

Didn't really like LOTR.


 
 Posted:   Jul 18, 2021 - 11:54 AM   
 By:   darthbrett   (Member)

Lol, this thread is called "Why dont you like William's scores?",
yet still the die hards renames it to "You're wrong and here is why you think you dont like William's scores".


Well to be honest, the same exact thing would happen if there was a Goldsmith thread about the same topic, too. And rightfully so for both Williams and Goldsmith. I mean, I think those that dislike either composer's works are in the very small minority, so it makes sense you are seeing a lot of posts saying otherwise. You ask 100 people on here if they love Williams' or Goldsmith's scores and I would be willing to wager at least 80%, if not more, do.

 
 
 Posted:   Jul 18, 2021 - 12:13 PM   
 By:   Jurassic T. Park   (Member)

I see the point you're making - it's fair, though quite subtle, especially since JNH doesn't always use the elements you describe.

No of course JNH doesn't always use the rock instruments with orchestra, but at least he used to do it a lot in the 90s, and I mostly enjoyed that. And he does it more than Williams.......


I like “The Fugitive” which has some of what you’re describing, and I like “Waterworld” but I’m wondering if you like that one too? “Waterworld” is basically a Williams-orchestra score, even down to the use of non-traditional instruments and subtle use of synths to sweeten parts of the orchestra.

I’m wondering too if you’re a fan of Goldsmith? He has a lot of scores that use the orchestra non-traditionally and are filled with synths. And to check against - did you like Shore’s “Lord of the Rings”? Another traditional use of orchestra albeit with quite an expanded inclusion of instruments from around the world.


I like the swimming cue in Waterworld. But that's electronic.

I like Goldsmith more than Williams, but not a big fan.

Didn't really like LOTR.


That makes sense then, so it seems like for you it’s just more the traditional use of the orchestra that doesn’t appeal to you, which is consistent across all the other composers.

Goldsmith does tend to be more experimental than Williams but not too much more.

And Lord of the Rings, while having an extremely diverse and unique blend of instruments is still presented very formally / traditionally.

It’s funny you mentioned the “Swimming” cue from “Waterworld” because I was also thinking of that as a standout cue that would sound very different from Williams since I think it uses a lot of synths and percussion that isn’t specially motivated by the film itself (like Memoirs of a Geisha’s “unique” instrumentation is motivated by the culture/setting).

 
 Posted:   Jul 18, 2021 - 1:34 PM   
 By:   First Breath   (Member)

I like Goldsmith more than Williams, but not a big fan.

Didn't really like LOTR.




Ok. Good luck.

 
 Posted:   Jul 18, 2021 - 4:59 PM   
 By:   Totoro   (Member)

Ok. Good luck.

 
 
 Posted:   Jul 18, 2021 - 5:28 PM   
 By:   joan hue   (Member)

I do like William's scores.

Am I the only one who wishes people would dialogue instead of posting youtube short sayings? Ugh.

 
 
 Posted:   Jul 18, 2021 - 6:21 PM   
 By:   Howard L   (Member)

Hi joan. I slogged through this thread wondering if I had said anything and have come away agreeing with what little I said 16 years ago. The fact this thread has been re-resurrected at this time has me rolling my eyes; seeing the clipped sound bite responses of the past few days vs. lengthy pieces expounding upon PsOV of the past is in and of itself quite telling. From a FSMessageboard sociological standpoint, that is. big grin

 
 
 Posted:   Jul 19, 2021 - 6:11 AM   
 By:   KeV McG   (Member)

I'll tell you which TRACKS I don't like by Williams.
Have Another Cherry from THE WITCHES OF EASTWICK & No Ticket from INDIANA JONES & THE LAST CRUSADE.
Don't know why, but they really get on my nerves.
They work well enough in the films, which is what it's all about I guess, but I always skip those tracks when playing those CD's.

 
 Posted:   Jul 19, 2021 - 6:41 AM   
 By:   DavidCoscina   (Member)

I would surmise that most people post from their phones nowadays rather than from their computer which tends to affect the length and detail of their responses.

It’s interesting to revisit this thread after all these years. I’ve changed my perspective a little since my initial posts back in 2004. I listen to less Williams these days and more Goldsmith. Not that I dislike Williams’ music- in fact, I just watched Nixon the other evening for the first time in ages and I love the score. It’s a bit of an underrated gem. The same goes for Sleepers. Of course, I continue to enjoy Jaws, Jaws 2, Dracula, The Fury, Superman, ANH and ESB, etc. And Accidental Tourist quite a lot actually. But a good portion of his work goes unlistened to these days in favor of other composers. Additionally, I’ve been studying Williams Walton and I’m a little surprised by the impact of his music/style on Williams’ output. Nothing too egregious but there are obvious similarities.

Dan mentioned Williams’ scoring process quite a few years ago. I would agree to a point, at least for some of his scores. Take the Helicopter Rescue from Superman (my all-time favorite score btw); it’s a very literal application of Music to events. After the initial rescue of Lois, it breaks into a quote from the Love Theme then jarringly recaps to that tense brass/string figure as the helicopter breaks loose and plunges toward them. Then it’s a bold statement of the Superman theme. It’s a bit knee-jerk in a way. Musically it’s all quite delightful of course and who knows if Donner asked Williams to slide in the love theme amidst the chaos of the rescue…

 
 
 Posted:   Jul 19, 2021 - 7:35 AM   
 By:   joan hue   (Member)

seeing the clipped sound bite responses

Howard, you have the correct names. I wasn't sure what to call them.
Those sound bites seem to be mocking people.


David is correct about the use of phones. I don't ever log in with my phone. Maybe I should try it on trips.

 
 Posted:   Jul 19, 2021 - 7:55 AM   
 By:   King Solium   (Member)

I'll tell you which TRACKS I don't like by Williams.
Have Another Cherry from THE WITCHES OF EASTWICK & No Ticket from INDIANA JONES & THE LAST CRUSADE.
Don't know why, but they really get on my nerves.
They work well enough in the films, which is what it's all about I guess, but I always skip those tracks when playing those CD's.


I like "No Ticket" from TLC but I generally dislike it when Williams gets all cutesy with his music. I find it very irritating, for example the Ewok music in Jedi. I don't care for his Potter scores for the very same reason.

 
 Posted:   Jul 19, 2021 - 10:32 AM   
 By:   Thierry Schreurs   (Member)

For me, I've found his scores of the last 20 years far less enjoyable because he really hasn't broadened his style at all. Apart from thematic material, you could play any of his scores and I couldn't tell you which film they belong to.

A lot of this has to do with his action writing. It's fast- very fast. I'm amazed a man nearing 90 doesn't have crippling arthritis that prevents him from physically writing so many crazy runs and rhythmic shifts, etc. It can be exciting music no doubt but after a few cues it can really become white noise. The latest Star Wars scores for example feature those signature 16-th note trumpet phrases, but apart from that it just gets to be too much of the same identity. The same goes for the dramatic moments, it's all scored in this blanket of noise, little nuance. It gets stale.

It's amazing how he comes up with so many action motifs, but again it seems to my ears like they're hardly developed. He might introduce a theme in one spot of the film and not reference it again, which loses cohesion. Some scores like AI are full of themes and developed motifs whereas the Star Wars prequels sometimes ignore possible theme usages at crucial moments or avoid bringing back themes that would tie the stories together.

All in all, they're not bad scores in the slightest but they certainly are underwhelming. I almost feel like his constant collaboration with Spielberg has been a hindrance. It's kept his style stagnant.


I may second this. This is the most interesting statement I've read from that entire thread so far.
John Williams is a genius, can deliver incredible themes, rousing action cues, deluxe orchestral packages, no question....but is on auto-pilot mode when he has to deal with symphonic scores since nearly 20 years and most of them are boring at the end. TINTIN, INDIANA JONES 4, HARRY POTTER 1, 2 and 3, STAR WARS last trilogy...always the same orchestral package with the same gimmicks and tricks.
Pleasant film music enough it is of course, but nothing original or new or challenging. He has the excuse of age to explain the auto-pilot mode. The Hollywood typecasting including music does the rest.
His last ambitious and widely above average compositions IMHO are WAR OF THE WORLDS, CATCH ME IF YOU CAN, A.I. The last good surprise was THE POST. It's tough to stay the best endlessly...

 
 Posted:   Jul 19, 2021 - 10:37 AM   
 By:   Advise & Consent   (Member)

whereas the Star Wars prequels sometimes ignore possible theme usages at crucial moments or avoid bringing back themes that would tie the stories together.

Well written plots and coherent (and interesting) storylines would probably help. Those prequels ain't exactly good.

 
 
 Posted:   Jul 19, 2021 - 4:15 PM   
 By:   rickO   (Member)

When listening to John Williams cue "Rats" from Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade, I can hear him totally interweaving Night of the Beast from Poltergeist which is by Mr Goldsmith. If you listen to them back to back enough times you will hear it. Now let me add wholeheartedly that this is not a moment of plagiarism but a clever homage and also usage of said material.

-Rick O.


I just wanted to add to my comment, that there is a specific point in Williams "Ah, Rats!" cue when he brings in the Poltergeist, It's :52 seconds from the end of the piece. It's nearly note for note, and it's hard to tell unless your listening for it. But once you notice it, it's hard to miss.

-Rick O.

 
 Posted:   Jul 19, 2021 - 5:27 PM   
 By:   King Solium   (Member)

I say every artist has a good ten years in them. Age, complacency, and repressiveness factors in. The "fire" inside diminishes after awhile, its just human nature. That's not to say an artist doesn't do anything good ever again, just that the "golden years" are not finite.

 
 Posted:   Jul 19, 2021 - 6:19 PM   
 By:   Advise & Consent   (Member)

I say every artist has a good ten years in them. Age, complacency, and repressiveness factors in. The "fire" inside diminishes after awhile, its just human nature. That's not to say an artist doesn't do anything good ever again, just that the "golden years" are not finite.

Probably true. Nevertheless, Mr. Williams has produced remarkable works in every decade of his career, including the last one. Who else but Mr. Williams, nearly 80 years at the time, could write a score as sprightly, nimble and sophisticated as The Adventures of Tintin? That would have been a feat for a man half his age.

 
 
 Posted:   Jul 20, 2021 - 11:04 AM   
 By:   Avatarded   (Member)

As a style / sound, it's never appealed to me much. I find that of course they're popular and recognizable, but they don't give me that sense of nostalgia or resonate with me personally. I "know" the Jurassic Park theme, but I don't "care" about it, that sort of thing.

I find it more interesting that these sorts of questions are met with echo-chamber replies. That didn't start with Twitter.

If you're not with us, you're against us and don't matter. You are supposed to love Williams and Goldsmith or you're wrong and have no place here, that kind of nonsense that social media is all about now.

#canceled

 
 
 Posted:   Jul 20, 2021 - 12:32 PM   
 By:   Jurassic T. Park   (Member)

As a style / sound, it's never appealed to me much. I find that of course they're popular and recognizable, but they don't give me that sense of nostalgia or resonate with me personally. I "know" the Jurassic Park theme, but I don't "care" about it, that sort of thing.

If you’d be willing to elaborate, I am curious to learn a bit more specifically what your perspective is.

Have you seen the movies with the scores in them or just listened to them as standalone scores?
How would you describe Williams’ style/sound and is it different from other composers?
What scores would you say give you a sense of nostalgia / resonate with you?

I similarly asked “First Breath” a lot of different questions and was able to reach a helpful understanding of their perspective.

 
 
 Posted:   Jul 20, 2021 - 12:45 PM   
 By:   Ray1992   (Member)

If you're not with us, you're against us and don't matter. You are supposed to love Williams and Goldsmith or you're wrong and have no place here, that kind of nonsense that social media is all about now.

#canceled


Many people REALLY prone to go to extremes and think that his opinion and view are correct, while others are not.
It doesn't matter who likes what (because we're all different) - orchestral music or electronic. Everyone decides for himself what sounds beautiful to him - an orchestra or a synthesizer. What matters is whether we respect the opinion and musical taste of others. And it already depends on the person. It is naive to think that EVERYONE should like what I like.

 
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