....(the author’s contention of an “unnatural,” i.e. incestuous, relationship between Pat and her father is absurd).
There are many more connotations to 'unnatural' than just incest.
MacKay essentially resists the macho need to justify his own dignity, as was the stereotype in many westerns, by 'rising to the occasion' and slaying the father-in-law's ogre to free the damsel. It's another example of his not needing to prove himself to others. Rather than do the expected, he chooses another damsel, who is far from dependent.
Pat's Elektra thing is so strong that she thinks he and all other men, 'will never be half the man that Henry Terrill was'. The young suitor must defeat this in her psyche and replace her infantile fixation. In any of 1,000 other movies that's just what young Jason or Perseus would do. But again, he sees no need for conflict. 'Why?' is his watchword always. If she doesn't have the self-awareness to see that herself, then she's not who he thought she was.
Your contention that he rides Old Thunder to just thwart the trick in future is only half right. Wyler liked ambiguities. We don't know to what extent MacKay was trying to prove TO HIMSELF what he wouldn't to others. You forget that the horse is a symbol of the libido, and this was part and parcel of his experimenting within himself if Pat could be 'broken'.
Film Sage, so glad you chimed in with more information and interpretations, and glad Ray and Nicolai like this topic.
I see various interpretations of riding Old Thunder. Interesting. I just watched that scene on youtube yesterday. According to the book I just read, Moross wrote music for that scene that the editor refused to use. It might have impacted that scene. I guess he wrote rather comedic music for the riding of Old Thunder.
Nicolai, I played the scene you posted just yesterday. At the 3:08 mark is my favorite theme from this score. I couldn't find the first scene where we heard that theme and hear a whip crack. Interesting that not a word was spoken between the two men; they could just read each other. I see that the movie will be on Encore western channel 12/18.
One of the things I liked about this book is that the author contrasts Moross's novel western score approach to previous scores. A lot of westerns are discussed in the book. (Yeah Ray.) She analyses 4 scores in some detail before she dives into The Big Country. Those four are: Jubal, The Tin Star, Gunfight at OK Corral,, and Man of the West. They are different scores, but ultimately, the author says, "the music does not make sense without the visuals." ("Music was composed to mimic action.") By the way, she greatly admires all four of these westerns. (I've not seen Jubal yet, but I will!)
Then she goes on the show how Moross took a different approach.
And of course there's a thread of pacifism in the film; it's what the film's about.
Certainly! And yet, like many another ode to nonviolence, the film finds time to give the audience the expected thrills of gunfight, duel, fistfight, men riding into battle, etc. I'm not saying that the treatment hypocritical in that regard. It's just that genre expectations are hard to undercut. It's the rare Hollywood treatment of this theme that really does so.
It is a stunning revelation to me that William Wyler had reservations (or even disliked) Jerome Moross' groundbreaking score, particularly in light of the fact that he originally tried to persuade Aaron Copland.
The score by Jerome Moross is one of the all time great film scores (and not just all time great Western scores), and it is clearly influenced by Copland's idiom. I wonder if Wyler still thought so in his later days? I mean, perhaps he had just something else in mind at the time. Interesting. Perhaps Moross' score was "too big"? It's a very epic score, symphonic, sweeping, it's bold and is more of an individual component in the film and not a by-the-numbers-hit-the-spot score.
That's why it's such a good listen, it does not "need" the film to function, even though it works very well within the context of the film.
And of course there's a thread of pacifism in the film; it's what the film's about.
Certainly! And yet, like many another ode to nonviolence, the film finds time to give the audience the expected thrills of gunfight, duel, fistfight, men riding into battle, etc. I'm not saying that the treatment hypocritical in that regard. It's just that genre expectations are hard to undercut. It's the rare Hollywood treatment of this theme that really does so.
But if pacifism or non-violence is a theme in your movie, you obviously need to contrast it. If you have no war in your movie, your "pacifist" does not have anything to do... if no one in your movie is violent, the particular "non-violence" of your character becomes unimportant. It is not "hypocritical", it is essential.
Also, while MacKay is an unusual western hero (he doens't carry a gun, fires a single shot in the entire movie, which is aimed at the ground), he himself is not a "pacifist". It is implied that he was in fights before, he's actually pretty tough and he sure could hold his ground with Steve Leech (in one of the best fights ever filmed in a western). He is just hesistant to resort to violence, that's not the same as being a complete "pacifist".
By the way, I know the movie is out on Blu Ray... does anyone know if the transfer is good? This is a movie I'd buy in a "special edition", if there ever were one.
It is a stunning revelation to me that William Wyler had reservations (or even disliked) Jerome Moross' groundbreaking score, particularly in light of the fact that he originally tried to persuade Aaron Copland.
The score by Jerome Moross is one of the all time great film scores (and not just all time great Western scores), and it is clearly influenced by Copland's idiom. I wonder if Wyler still thought so in his later days? I mean, perhaps he had just something else in mind at the time. Interesting. Perhaps Moross' score was "too big"? It's a very epic score, symphonic, sweeping, it's bold and is more of an individual component in the film and not a by-the-numbers-hit-the-spot score.
That's why it's such a good listen, it does not "need" the film to function, even though it works very well within the context of the film.
No doubt Mr. Wyler was a brilliant director, one of my all time favorites......but it's an old story that he had very little if any sensitivity to music and it's role in filmmaking. We're lucky indeed that Friedhofer's Best Years Of Our Lives and Rozsa's Ben Hur made it through the process basically intact!
re: Source being "a short story, or more like a novella." It's not as long as WAR AND PEACE, but it does qualify as a novel. A very expensive novel, these days, until somebody reprints it:
Nicolai, I played the scene you posted just yesterday. At the 3:08 mark is my favorite theme from this score. I couldn't find the first scene where we heard that theme and hear a whip crack. .
Joan...yet another indication that you have exceptional taste in film music.. That's my favorite theme from the score as well (and one of the great all-time Western themes). I still remember my outrage when I got the soundtrack LP many years ago...and that theme WAS NOT ON IT. Talk about disappointment. Many years later there was a boot LP that contained the theme and then of course the many CD releases. I had to make do with my favorite theme from the LP: "The Welcoming"...almost as good as the above-mentioned cue.
I just managed to find a used copy of the book in good condition for only $26 on Amazon including shipping in the US. There are more, but for some reason, most of these are in Japan (???????)...So shipping will be higher for US and UK customers.
Ray is so right. Long ago I knew how excited a composer friend of mine would be when I played for him that theme on that boot LP. How right I was. He declared, "THAT'S the music that lifted me out of my seat when I saw the brand new movie in a Manhattan theater!"
Ray is so right. Long ago I knew how excited a composer friend of mine would be when I played for him that theme on that boot LP. How right I was. He declared, "THAT'S the music that lifted me out of my seat when I saw the brand new movie in a Manhattan theater!"
Yeah! I just about jumped out of my chair when I got that boot and finally could listen to that cue. Heaven!
Thank you William and Grecchus for your valuable insights. Your additions are really interesting. Hoping the movie plays on TV again and very soon. I will bring new insights to my next viewing.
FYI: Scarecrow Press has published other film score guides not just The Big Country. All titles are followed by the words, “A Film Score Guide.” Titles are:
Gabriel Yared’s The English Patient Danny Elfman’s Batman Ennio Morricone’s the Good, The Band and The Ugly Louis and Bebe Barron’s Forbiddent Planet Bernard Herrmann’s The Ghost and Mrs. Muir Erich Wolfgang Korngold’s The Adventures of Robin Hood Mychael Danna’s The Ice Storm Alex North’s A Streetcar Named Desire Nino Rota’s The Godfather Trilogy Miklos Rozsa’s Ben Hur Zbigniew Presner’s Three Colors Franz Waxman’s Rebecca
There's also titles on Hans Zimmer/James Newton Howard's The Dark Knight, James Newton Howard's Signs, Ilan Eshkeri's Stardust, Leonard Bernstein's On The Waterfront and David Shire's The Conversation.
Nicolai, I played the scene you posted just yesterday. At the 3:08 mark is my favorite theme from this score. I couldn't find the first scene where we heard that theme and hear a whip crack. .
Joan...yet another indication that you have exceptional taste in film music.. That's my favorite theme from the score as well (and one of the great all-time Western themes). I still remember my outrage when I got the soundtrack LP many years ago...and that theme WAS NOT ON IT. Talk about disappointment. Many years later there was a boot LP that contained the theme and then of course the many CD releases. I had to make do with my favorite theme from the LP: "The Welcoming"...almost as good as the above-mentioned cue.
It is my favorite theme also. And like you, I was outraged when I bought the LP and it wasn't on it. I played it completely through several times just to make sure.
Re: Western "genre expectations." I think that even more than the expectation that a "Shoot 'Em Up" movie will contain a certain amount of violent action is the expectation that the hero will be participating in it. Consider that even in a film such as DESTRY RIDES AGAIN, Jimmy Stewart's young sheriff who refuses to carry a gun finally dons his gun belt and goes after the bad guys in the last reel. The virtue and strength of THE BIG COUNTRY is in the way Peck's protagonist sticks to his principles right up to the very last frame. When I first saw the film on TV as a high school kid, I was actually disappointed that my genre expectation was thwarted, but of course I've done a lot of learning and growing since then, and have long since come to see Wyler's masterful epic more clearly.
Ray is so right. Long ago I knew how excited a composer friend of mine would be when I played for him that theme on that boot LP. How right I was. He declared, "THAT'S the music that lifted me out of my seat when I saw the brand new movie in a Manhattan theater!"
I bought that boot because it had Coogan's Bluff ( it had Goldsmith's General With The Cockeyed I.D. as the main cover title ) but was blown away when I heard that theme from one of my all time favourite scores, The Big Country album was seriously underwhelming when you heard and knew how much great music was in the film.
Was the score album released before all the recording was finished? Like for example John Barry's Thunderball where some of the best music in the final never made the album.
Nicolai, I played the scene you posted just yesterday. At the 3:08 mark is my favorite theme from this score. I couldn't find the first scene where we heard that theme and hear a whip crack. . Joan...yet another indication that you have exceptional taste in film music.. That's my favorite theme from the score as well (and one of the great all-time Western themes). I still remember my outrage when I got the soundtrack LP many years ago...and that theme WAS NOT ON IT. Talk about disappointment. Many years later there was a boot LP that contained the theme and then of course the many CD releases.
That's my favorite theme from the score as well (and one of the great all-time Western themes). I still remember my outrage when I got the soundtrack LP many years ago...and that theme WAS NOT ON IT. Talk about disappointment. Many years later there was a boot LP that contained the theme and then of course the many CD releases.
