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CD sales are now down 97% from their heyday in 2000. That's quite a drop.
https://www.statista.com/chart/12950/cd-sales-in-the-us/
The interesting thing is that while I'm sure our niche market has gone down too considerably (as is obvious when you compare earlier 3000 copy CDs sell out within hours and nowadays 1500 copies of CDs remain available for months), but probably much less than the overall market share for CD has shrunk.
In the mainstream pop/rock market, CDs have little significance anymore. Apart from us nutcase collectors, I hardly know anyone anymore who still buys CDs.
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...Apart from us nutcase collectors, I hardly know anyone anymore who still buys CDs.
Not everyone who buys CDs is a "collector,"
Only those who keep them. :-)
and not all music "collectors" buy CDs.
Quite true.
But that's not what I said anyway. As I stated: I hardly know anyone anymore who still buys CDs at all, apart from us nutcase collectors. There may be other people out there who still buy them, but they seem to be far and few. Casual music listeners certainly don't seem to buy them (anymore).
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Interesting updated chart, Nicolai. I changed the title of this thread so it wouldn't feel so dated.
I was looking around for updated streaming listening charts and articles, and found this interesting predictive chart.
Comes from a research report with this header:
Report Overview
The global music streaming market size was valued at USD 20.9 billion in 2019 and is expected to expand at a compound annual growth rate (CAGR) of 17.8% from 2020 to 2027. The growing popularity of digital platforms and the increasing adoption of smart devices is expected to positively impact industry growth during the forecast period.
https://www.grandviewresearch.com/industry-analysis/music-streaming-market
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...Apart from us nutcase collectors, I hardly know anyone anymore who still buys CDs.
Not everyone who buys CDs is a "collector,"
Only those who keep them. :-)
and not all music "collectors" buy CDs.
Quite true.
But that's not what I said anyway. As I stated: I hardly know anyone anymore who still buys CDs at all, apart from us nutcase collectors. There may be other people out there who still buy them, but they seem to be far and few. Casual music listeners certainly don't seem to buy them (anymore).
I think this is directly related to the quality of the music itself, how it is produced, marketed, etc. and the cultural context in which it resides.
I like a lot of contemporary music but much of it isn't really written for intimate listening nor was it written for high quality. It doesn't mean it's bad music or the musicians are bad - but current rock music for instance is sort of meant to be played over speakers in a car, in a house, club, etc. so streaming quality in those contexts is acceptable.
Current pop music is even less reliant on quality - it has the same intended listening space as being LOUD in a casual environment, so again streaming quality is acceptable.
Older 70s rock was kind of meant for home listening on headphones and the music matched that with intimacy and complexity of layers (Fleetwood Mac comes to mind, or The Beatles).
90s alt rock, which tended to play softer, was also layered the same way and meant for listening on headphones or in an intimate home setting.
But apart from those one-time genres, classical and film music (adjacent to classical music) are really the only genres of music truly meant to be listened to and dissected in extremely high quality. Consequently, streaming quality doesn't do justice to either type of music because that close listening of all its different layers isn't enabled by streaming quality.
CDs have been the standard for high quality music for a while, and until high-res digital audio becomes a reliable and regulated standard for film music, I don't really see CDs going away as the audience demand for quality is there and the audience is quite discerning.
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But apart from those one-time genres, classical and film music (adjacent to classical music) are really the only genres of music truly meant to be listened to and dissected in extremely high quality. Consequently, streaming quality doesn't do justice to either type of music because that close listening of all its different layers isn't enabled by streaming quality.
I agree with some points you make, though I have to disagree with that last point: streaming services like Qobuz, Tidal, etc. offer sound quality that is as good (or theoretically higher) than CD quality. There is no reason why you should not listen to and/or dissect any piece of music in extremely high quality. Today, streaming isn't just MP3 and lossy sound, but also high-res and MQA.
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Producing a physical cd is no longer expensive, and postage is also not a big factor.
Postage and customs are a VERY big factor, they can easily tripple the price of a CD nowadays. If I'm on the fence of a release, I'm much less likely nowadays to buy it, as $60 for a CD is just too much.
I personally would be more than happy if more releases came as downloads (provided they are lossless/high-res). I know there are some who like physical media, and that's fine, but I can do without the plastic. I'm interested in the music, I got enough CDs as it is, and currently, they just take up space in cardboard boxes. I have hardly any need for the actual plastic disc myself. So I certainly welcome that more releases are offered as download.
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CD sales are now down 97% from their heyday in 2000. That's quite a drop.
Perhaps, but they're still insanely expensive. In fact, they've become more expensive the more obsolete they've become. Unlike LPs, which you could get for a shilling back when their popularity dropped in the 90s.
Really? Interesting. I don't find CDs insanely expensive at all... actually, I don't think they have increased in price at all within the last 20-30 years. When FSM first released Stagecoach 23 years ago, that CD cost around $20.-, and that still seems to be the price of current upper end releases.
And nowadays, many (mainstream/classical) CDs are sold in boxed sets, which makes them super cheap, or often times many are on sale after their initial run for €10 or $5 or so. At least where I live. Perhaps that varies with location.
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Then you and I live on different planets. In the 90s, LPs - considered obsolete at the time (not so much today) - were dirt cheap. A similar development has not happened for CDs. No dumping of prices.
Indeed, maybe not different planets, but different countries. The LPs that went dirt cheap in the 90s were of course used LPs, because people got rid of LPs. I see the same development with CDs, lots of used CDs dirt cheap in used stores around Cologne. Of course, both the LPs that once were dirt cheap and the CDs that are now dirt cheap are, for the larger part, mainstream CDs. Limited collector edition LPs were not dirt cheap in the 1990s, and limited collector edition CDs (like soundtracks) are of course also not dirt cheap nowadays.
And in the CD stores around Cologne or Berlin (they still have a few of those) I bought quite a few new CDs for very little money, highly prized classical recordings, but also jazz/pop recordings from DG, Decca, RCA, Universal, etc. for around five bucks a piece -- new! Of course, you won't find a lot of Intrada/FSM/LaLaLand recordings used or cheap, that's true, as far as film scores are concerned, it is more mainstream stuff, but it's there I got a lot of bargains. I grabbed a lot of recordings these past few years simply because they were irresistibly cheap (compared to what they once cost).
Just some 10-15 years ago, I could find everything I wanted dirt cheap, just by googling around a bit, using various online CD stores. This is not the case anymore. With the exorbitant shipping costs on top, the few remaining items on my want list have stayed there for years and years now. And several of them aren't even that rare. It's a terrible time to buy CDs these days.
Shipping costs are stiff, yes, especially for import items, less so if I order something within the EU, like from Musicbox or Quartet.
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Posted: |
Jun 10, 2021 - 7:00 AM
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By: |
Thor
(Member)
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Indeed, maybe not different planets, but different countries.
Partially, yes, but it's also less country-dependent.
First of all, the selection of CDs is much poorer these days. All the regular online stores I used now have very skimpy selection.
Second, if I do find what I'm looking for, they're no longer priced at a budget. They're ALL priced high. If there are 'budget' sections, this is also extremely limited. Only cheap trash that was always cheap trash. No bargains to be found.
Third, many new, commercial CDs are priced high from the get-go and rarely drop in price (recent examples include the latest Rammstein or Alan Parsons CDs, for example...the latter I had to acquire through a personal trade because no sale ever surfaced).
Fourth, the secondhand market - which is really where it's visible the most - does no longer contain bargains. In the early days of FSM, there were personal ads offering CDs for $3-5. These are very, very rare these days. Same for ebay; it was easy-peasy to find a score you were looking for to a cheap price, even after a bidding war. Extremely hard to find these days.
Fifth, while the prices on new limited edition CDs haven't increased that much compared to 20 years ago, the moment they hit the secondary market, they're now priced through the roof, to a whole other extent than back then.
Sixth, there's the shipping, which has increased with several hundred percent over just a decade.
In short, while CDs may be out-of-fashion and sales are declining, that isn't mirrored in the pricing of them -- i.e. the exact opposite of what happened to LPs in the 90s. There are some 20+ titles on my want list that have stayed there for years and years now. I periodically scour the net for bargains, but they're nowhere to be found. And many of them aren't even that rare.
So yeah - you and I have a very, very different experience of the situation.
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There is actually more listening than ever before in recorded music history, and it's because people love streaming and on demand content. (Well, and because there are actually more people in the world listening than ever before, thank you population growth!)
Quality and physical objects aside, customers want the ease and convenience of digital and streaming, and by and large are not motivated by high quality. If more people had wanted CDs over the last fifteen years, then discs would not have been on the decline. Read what Schiffy said above four years ago about his friends in the music business.
If there were a larger market, there would be more supply.
Definitely makes it hard for those who want CDs, don't want digital, but are having trouble justifying the rising costs of an ever narrower niche as in-store purchases are increasingly replaced by exorbitant shipping costs and higher unit costs.
I'm mostly digital now myself, and not high-res. But I just laid down a ridiculous amount of money to snap up some anime CDs, and don't regret it a bit - it's the only way I can listen to these albums, and I'm digging them.
It's nice I mostly don't have to do that any more, thanks to so much so readily available for about the price of one album a month.
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Indeed, maybe not different planets, but different countries.
Partially, yes, but it's also less country-dependent.
First of all, the selection of CDs is much poorer these days. All the regular online stores I used now have very skimpy selection.
Yes, the selection of what is available currently on CD over the years has declined. Obviously. In fact, that's obviously to be expected that if CD sales plummet by 97%, it has a direct effect on the selection.
This is particularly true for new recordings. There is practically no market anymore for new studio recordings of classical music, all the ones that are done are live recordings, or recordings to promote a particular artist or tour.
Second, if I do find what I'm looking for, they're no longer priced at a budget. They're ALL priced high. If there are 'budget' sections, this is also extremely limited. Only cheap trash that was always cheap trash. No bargains to be found.
I'm sure it can be frustrating if one wants to find a particular recording. When I go into a record store, especially these last few years (say ten years or so), I usually browse just to see what's there, and not to find or get a particular recording. If I look for a particular recording, I usually go to Amazon, specialty label stores, etc. I found a lot of discs for excellent prices at such mainstream retailers as Amazon though.
Third, many new, commercial CDs are priced high from the get-go and rarely drop in price (recent examples include the latest Rammstein or Alan Parsons CDs, for example...the latter I had to acquire through a personal trade because no sale ever surfaced).
That's not my experience. The latest Rammstein Album as far as I can tell is "Untitled", which currently costs €14,99 at Amazon, which is quite ok for a fairly recent CD. I bought the Trifonov Rachmaninoff Piano Concertos, which last time I check also cost €14,99, for €7,49 a piece when Amazon had them on sale. In 2019 I bought an 8-CD set of Maurizio Pollini playing Beethoven Sonatas for less than €22.-! There was a time when every single one of those CDs cost more like €18,99. And I remember quite a few findings like that.
Of course, the market is drying up, that's perfectly clear (just like the vinyl market back in the 1990s dried up, though you can still find bargains.)
Fourth, the secondhand market - which is really where it's visible the most - does no longer contain bargains. In the early days of FSM, there were personal ads offering CDs for $3-5. These are very, very rare these days. Same for ebay; it was easy-peasy to find a score you were looking for to a cheap price, even after a bidding war. Extremely hard to find these days.
I recently (last year) picked up a few film scores at medimops.de (a store that sells used CDs) for just a few bucks a piece, stuff like Zimmer's PEARL HARBOR, Williams' AMISTAD, Penderecki Violin Concerto, etc.. for less than €5 each. I even found "IT'S MY PARTY" from Poledouris -- a score I have actively looked for -- for less than €10.
So indeed, we may experience it differently. Of course, special editions or collector's soundtracks etc. have always been more limited and expensive.
Fifth, while the prices on new limited edition CDs haven't increased that much compared to 20 years ago, the moment they hit the secondary market, they're now priced through the roof, to a whole other extent than back then.
Not sure if that wasn't always the case. Secondary market for limited editions... hmm... I remember the time when people paid four figure sums for stuff like CHERRY 2000, and UNDER FIRE I've seen sell for over $200.-! And that was over 20 years ago and UNDER FIRE wasn't even a limited edition, just rare.
Sixth, there's the shipping, which has increased with several hundred percent over just a decade.
Yes, that is true. And that makes importing things expensive. However, if I buy something from within the EU, shipping is usually reasonable, and if I buy something from Amazon, I don't pay any shipping at all.
In short, while CDs may be out-of-fashion and sales are declining, that isn't mirrored in the pricing of them -- i.e. the exact opposite of what happened to LPs in the 90s. There are some 20+ titles on my want list that have stayed there for years and years now. I periodically scour the net for bargains, but they're nowhere to be found. And many of them aren't even that rare.
Yes, well, I looked for a long time for IT'S MY PARTY, never thought it would be all that rare, until I then found it for ten bucks. I don't really have a "want list" anymore though, so I just go with the flow and see what's out there. That may be part of the reason why we experience it differently: I am not looking for any particular CD currently, IT'S MY PARTY was the last score I remember that took me a while to track down for a reasonable amount of money.
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Posted: |
Jun 10, 2021 - 9:47 AM
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By: |
Thor
(Member)
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That's not my experience. The latest Rammstein Album as far as I can tell is "Untitled", which currently costs €14,99 at Amazon, which is quite ok for a fairly recent CD.
Sure, but it's still too expensive for me. All of the previous Rammstein albums I own have been bought to about a third of that price, just by perusing various online stores and auction sites. The latest of which was LIEBE IST FÜR ALLE DA in 2009. Didn't take long to find back then. For this latest release, however, I've been scouring 15-20 different sources -- both first and secondary markets -- over the course of 3 years since it was released (maybe once a month or so), but haven't found it cheaply anywhere. This applies to ALL the other items on my want list too. So some things have changed.
Not sure if that wasn't always the case. Secondary market for limited editions... hmm... I remember the time when people paid four figure sums for stuff like CHERRY 2000, and UNDER FIRE I've seen sell for over $200.-! And that was over 20 years ago and UNDER FIRE wasn't even a limited edition, just rare.
Yes, you would find ridiculously priced items back in the day too. But not as consistently high throughout so many titles as you do now (and also for items that aren't as rare, they're merely "limited" in some form or other). A quick glance at this board's Trading Post will exemplify this.
Yes, that is true. And that makes importing things expensive. However, if I buy something from within the EU, shipping is usually reasonable, and if I buy something from Amazon, I don't pay any shipping at all.
Lucky you. I haven't yet found a place within Europe (or even Scandinavia and Norway) that offers "old" shipping prices, or free shipping.
That may be part of the reason why we experience it differently: I am not looking for any particular CD currently, IT'S MY PARTY was the last score I remember that took me a while to track down for a reasonable amount of money.
Could be part of the reason, yes. The days of just "browsing" and purchasing stuff I stumble across are pretty much over for me. For physical albums, it's all limited to these 20-ish albums on my want list. No more, no less.
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The days of just "browsing" and purchasing stuff I stumble across are pretty much over for me. For physical albums, it's all limited to these 20-ish albums on my want list. No more, no less.
I don't really have a want list anymore (except perhaps for a few, like Intrada's expanded IN HARMS WAY), most of the major releases I originally missed somehow I pretty much have by now. For me, it's all about discovering something new, sometimes a new interpretation of a classical work I'm familiar with, sometimes a new release of a film score or jazz album... like the new releases of Images, Shamus, etc., I will get those, but they're obviously new. When I go into a record store now (something I have not done since the pandemic), it's mostly just spontaneously giving something new a try or buying something on a whim.
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