 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
When you can match up EVERY THEME he ever wrote to an existing work by someone else, I'll listen.
Otherwise, he's no more guilty than Sarde, Fielding, Conti etc.
Nice deflection. Political career on the horizon? 
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I didn't deflect anything A&C.
Merely fired the ball back into your court.
I assume you're a big Jerry Fielding fan?
You're on particularly thin ice right now.
Temper, temper. Thin ice? I think you're basing your assumption on a false premise, nephew. I'll make one of my own now: pretty sure STEM wasn't your forte.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Boys, boys, what are we doing here? Losing our heads in a crisis?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Boys, boys, what are we doing here? Losing our heads in a crisis?
@ Mr. McOldSmith: Nah! I'm just having a bit of harmless fun AND making a point about artistic integrity (a notion that has unfortunately gone out of fashion in this day and age).
|
|
|
|
|
|
Comparing version A to version B release, will The Rocketeer get repressed, and once again, Horner reuses other composer's themes. It was only a matter of time before this old topic resurfaced. I guess there are no original topics on this forum ...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Comparing version A to version B release, will The Rocketeer get repressed, and once again, Horner reuses other composer's themes. It was only a matter of time before this old topic resurfaced. I guess there are no original topics on this forum ...
We can't be thinking of something original all the time. Isn't that the point of this thread?
Incorrect! I made slight (very, very slight, changes to the structure of a sentence. therefore it is an entirely new creation and I lay claim to it. That's my chosen version of events, my lived experience and therefore the absolute, incontestable, truth.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
 |
Posted: |
Jun 25, 2020 - 10:00 AM
|
|
|
|
By: |
fmfan1
(Member)
|
Being a teen with a great interest in classical music, I picked up on this similarity when the film was released. As Horner was my 3rd favorite composer back then (when it seemed important to list favorites), I was increasingly disappointed to hear his borrowings over the next three decades. Fortunately, I have made peace with this issue, and still enjoy listening to his scores. (I just picked up Project X and Cocoon: The Return during recent sales.) Here's my thinking:
(1) Horner was a very talented film scorer. Most of the films he scored were improved by his music. He spotted his films well, and he was among the most gifted at facilitating an emotional response from the viewer. He had command of the orchestra, wrote complex music, and his hard work was evident. There is a great deal of variety within his body of work, and therefore his scores can often surprise the listener. His soundtracks often work terrifically as stand-alone listening.
(2) His self-borrowing and his use of other composers' ideas are extensive. Although it may be true that "all composers do it," an honest appraisal might lead to the conclusion that Horner borrowed significantly more than most - not just in the number of times, but also the extent of each "borrowing". His borrowing seemed so unnecessary. He clearly had the talent to create original themes and cues, but there must have been some combination of factors that repeatedly resulted in lifts from other works: time pressure? ethical rationalizations? repeatedly working with directors who demanded adherence to a temp track?
In my mind, both of these viewpoints are valid. I understand why some people want to focus on #1 and easily dismiss any concerns about stealing. I understand why some people want to be exasperated by #2 and avoid his work. Still, I believe many of us have found that place in the middle where we can both enjoy and respect his scores while acknowledging and regretting his wide-spread lifts from other sources.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
 |
Posted: |
Jun 25, 2020 - 10:14 AM
|
|
|
|
By: |
Solium
(Member)
|
Being a teen with a great interest in classical music, I picked up on this similarity when the film was released. As Horner was my 3rd favorite composer back then (when it seemed important to list favorites), I was increasingly disappointed to hear his borrowings over the next three decades. Fortunately, I have made peace with this issue, and still enjoy listening to his scores. (I just picked up Project X and Cocoon: The Return during recent sales.) Here's my thinking:
(1) Horner was a very talented film scorer. Most of the films he scored were improved by his music. He spotted his films well, and he was among the most gifted at facilitating an emotional response from the viewer. He had command of the orchestra, wrote complex music, and his hard work was evident. There is a great deal of variety within his body of work, and therefore his scores can often surprise the listener. His soundtracks often work terrifically as stand-alone listening.
(2) His self-borrowing and his use of other composers' ideas are extensive. Although it may be true that "all composers do it," an honest appraisal might lead to the conclusion that Horner borrowed significantly more than most - not just in the number of times, but also the extent of each "borrowing". His borrowing seemed so unnecessary. He clearly had the talent to create original themes and cues, but there must have been some combination of factors that repeatedly resulted in lifts from other works: time pressure? ethical rationalizations? repeatedly working with directors who demanded adherence to a temp track?
In my mind, both of these viewpoints are valid. I understand why some people want to focus on #1 and easily dismiss any concerns about stealing. I understand why some people want to be exasperated by #2 and avoid his work. Still, I believe many of us have found that place in the middle where we can both enjoy and respect his scores while acknowledging and regretting his wide-spread lifts from other sources.
Nothing more needs to be said. Lock her up!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: |
Jun 25, 2020 - 11:17 AM
|
|
|
|
By: |
chriscoyle
(Member)
|
Being a teen with a great interest in classical music, I picked up on this similarity when the film was released. As Horner was my 3rd favorite composer back then (when it seemed important to list favorites), I was increasingly disappointed to hear his borrowings over the next three decades. Fortunately, I have made peace with this issue, and still enjoy listening to his scores. (I just picked up Project X and Cocoon: The Return during recent sales.) Here's my thinking:
(1) Horner was a very talented film scorer. Most of the films he scored were improved by his music. He spotted his films well, and he was among the most gifted at facilitating an emotional response from the viewer. He had command of the orchestra, wrote complex music, and his hard work was evident. There is a great deal of variety within his body of work, and therefore his scores can often surprise the listener. His soundtracks often work terrifically as stand-alone listening.
(2) His self-borrowing and his use of other composers' ideas are extensive. Although it may be true that "all composers do it," an honest appraisal might lead to the conclusion that Horner borrowed significantly more than most - not just in the number of times, but also the extent of each "borrowing". His borrowing seemed so unnecessary. He clearly had the talent to create original themes and cues, but there must have been some combination of factors that repeatedly resulted in lifts from other works: time pressure? ethical rationalizations? repeatedly working with directors who demanded adherence to a temp track?
In my mind, both of these viewpoints are valid. I understand why some people want to focus on #1 and easily dismiss any concerns about stealing. I understand why some people want to be exasperated by #2 and avoid his work. Still, I believe many of us have found that place in the middle where we can both enjoy and respect his scores while acknowledging and regretting his wide-spread lifts from other sources.
Nothing more needs to be said. Lock her up!
Yeah,
I guess that is what is so troubling is he could write great music then why would he borrow? But some directors continued to collaborate with him. There weren’t many musically literate directors or producers to catch it. He seemed to be a great conductor and knew exactly what he wanted from an orchestra. Was he lazy, stubborn or it didn’t bother him?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Or maybe, as Nicholas Meyer onces quoted him as saying during the writing of the score for Star Trek II: "I'm young, I haven't outgrown my influences yet." The thing is, it worked. He took after after that and when you ask for a composer to work on a score, do you generally ask him for something new a different that they've never heard him do before? Or do you ask for him (or her) to make music "like the stuff you did before?" He could easily have been giving what the directors what they wanted and expected.
Meh, I loved him. He also introduced me to classic music I never would have heard otherwise. As for self-quoting, if it's his own stuff, I have zero issues with it. However, adaptations of classic works should have been credited.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Just when you thought that you are listening to an " original " score by this guy ...once again you got proven wrong....
It's funny ..I always thought that at least AN AMERICAN TAIL was quite original ...but than I listened to Alexander Borodin's THE STEPPES OF CENTRAL ASIA..and you hear An American Tail.
This is not supposed to be a Horner bashing post...it's just funny how Horner seemed to get the right tracks for his scores....and yes..I must admit I was a bit dissapointed for I always thought that he did write that score all by " himself" ...still a great adaptation or incorporation !
All true, but the Borodin work is terrific... every film music fan should learn classical music through James Horner ;-) I did and now have an absolutely insane amount of classical music spread beyond the Horner influences but I still love James Horner's scores...
This thread inspired me to listen to both of the American Tail scores and they are absolutely lovely. Still surprised at whoever it was who said that Horner didn't write the A theme from Somewhere Out There, just the B Theme and that it never appears in the score. I'd honestly never noticed. Although I'm always amazed how much it sounds like a paraphrase of Somewhere Over the Rainbow in both the A and B sections of the theme.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
A&C..Temper, Temper etc.
-----------------
You see, the minute I see some perceived grasp for higher ground or upper statesmanship and name calling (nephew!?), it's a sign of someone's protective little security blanket being ruffled.
I'd be the last person to defend Horner for his regular plagiarism and self reference, but I can also see it in other composers as well.
But some people can be VERY blinkered around here, and not accepting of these obvious facts is self delusional.
Resorting to calling people delusional as a default argument is weak, very weak, and was your first line of defense. In a way, your approach is very typical of the fanboy, perceiving any legitimate observation about his "hero" as a direct attack against his fragile ego. No shots were fired until you barged in and in a very broad swipe attempted to shut down any views different than your own. Blinkered? Projection much? Typical postmodern mental gymnastics.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
