Zimmer's not liking his own stuff is kind of part of the problem. It also goes hand in hand with the built up persona of him as a genius, which I don't think he is. He doesn't need to promote himself because that's done very well for him - but where he'll deride his more orchestral works and earlier works that people like me tend to like more, and he still talks all the time about his worry that people won't like his music, he embraces the "genius" persona instead of humbly shoving it off, which is very off-putting. And when he's criticizing a style of music (orchestral) that I like from his earlier works, it feels very grimy. And when I consider that he has tons of flaws as a composer, it just makes him all the more unappealing. He comes across as being kind of uncomfortable with himself and not really committed to any aspect of his work.
When I look at someone like John Williams, he seems like a really grounded individual who is 110% committed to his craft and his output. He has chosen a love for orchestral works and has stayed committed to that throughout his entire career, despite its having gone in and out of fashion numerous times. He will try to push the envelope every so often but ultimately he stays true to his unique voice, which has always been classical with a blend of jazz. Very unique, and very HIM. So when he does really bland work (STANLEY & IRIS, TINTIN) or in extremely rare cases bad work (HEARTBEEPS), it doesn't affect my appreciation for him because he is loyal to his own craft. He might be embarrassed of his earlier works like SUGARLAND EXPRESS, but he stands by what he has done.
THE HOLIDAY is actually a great example because when Zimmer tries to switch genres, it sounds like a confusing mess. THE HOLIDAY sounds like he's trying to match the conventions of what the genre demands without really coming to it with a unique voice. It has his bad tendencies of creating an over-scored wall-of-sound effect while over-relying on sappy chord progressions. It ends up being an odd mix.
Compared to a similar romantic-comedy-entry by Williams like STANLEY & IRIS, I personally find this score to be very dull and trite... but it's still a Williams score. He stays committed to his own artistic perspective and goals without trying to shoehorn himself into a genre. That difference makes him so much easier to admire than Zimmer. The one time where I really disliked Williams was HEARTBEEPS and he was trying, so awkwardly, to fit himself into a weird synthy genre, and it felt so non-Williams. That score fortunately has pure Williams-esque moments that save it somewhat, but I provide that example as how when ANY composer loses their voice to fit the demands of the larger entity, it's not pleasant. Composer are supposed to be flexible to fit different genres, but they should do so with their own unique voice. Otherwise, there's absolutely no point in having different composers if they literally all sound the same.
This is why it is hard to take Zimmer haters seriously. If he doesn't act like Williams, he is bad. Because you know...actors, directors, athletes, business people...all have different personalities and promote themselves and that is ok. But when a composer does it, the whole world comes down. Honestly, you are obsessed with the word "genius." Zimmer is just speaking his mind. If that comes across as "genius" then that is your perception and your problem. I also found it curious that you never mentioned that Zimmer spoke highly of Williams, Newman, Powell, Arnold, Barry, etc. Zimmer has time and time again praised other composers. Not to mentioned that he mentored countless composers at RCP and they went on to have successful careers. Tell me, how many composers have Williams nurtured? Can you name a composer that has nurtured more successful talents than Zimmer?
I actually really like The Holiday and I do not mind the "over-scored wall of sound effect" whatever that means. When I listen to The Holiday I just hear a romantic score, not wall of sound effects.
Zimmer's not liking his own stuff is kind of part of the problem. It also goes hand in hand with the built up persona of him as a genius, which I don't think he is. He doesn't need to promote himself because that's done very well for him - but where he'll deride his more orchestral works and earlier works that people like me tend to like more, and he still talks all the time about his worry that people won't like his music, he embraces the "genius" persona instead of humbly shoving it off, which is very off-putting. And when he's criticizing a style of music (orchestral) that I like from his earlier works, it feels very grimy. And when I consider that he has tons of flaws as a composer, it just makes him all the more unappealing. He comes across as being kind of uncomfortable with himself and not really committed to any aspect of his work.
When I look at someone like John Williams, he seems like a really grounded individual who is 110% committed to his craft and his output. He has chosen a love for orchestral works and has stayed committed to that throughout his entire career, despite its having gone in and out of fashion numerous times. He will try to push the envelope every so often but ultimately he stays true to his unique voice, which has always been classical with a blend of jazz. Very unique, and very HIM. So when he does really bland work (STANLEY & IRIS, TINTIN) or in extremely rare cases bad work (HEARTBEEPS), it doesn't affect my appreciation for him because he is loyal to his own craft. He might be embarrassed of his earlier works like SUGARLAND EXPRESS, but he stands by what he has done.
THE HOLIDAY is actually a great example because when Zimmer tries to switch genres, it sounds like a confusing mess. THE HOLIDAY sounds like he's trying to match the conventions of what the genre demands without really coming to it with a unique voice. It has his bad tendencies of creating an over-scored wall-of-sound effect while over-relying on sappy chord progressions. It ends up being an odd mix.
Compared to a similar romantic-comedy-entry by Williams like STANLEY & IRIS, I personally find this score to be very dull and trite... but it's still a Williams score. He stays committed to his own artistic perspective and goals without trying to shoehorn himself into a genre. That difference makes him so much easier to admire than Zimmer. The one time where I really disliked Williams was HEARTBEEPS and he was trying, so awkwardly, to fit himself into a weird synthy genre, and it felt so non-Williams. That score fortunately has pure Williams-esque moments that save it somewhat, but I provide that example as how when ANY composer loses their voice to fit the demands of the larger entity, it's not pleasant. Composer are supposed to be flexible to fit different genres, but they should do so with their own unique voice. Otherwise, there's absolutely no point in having different composers if they literally all sound the same.
This is why it is hard to take Zimmer haters seriously. If he doesn't act like Williams, he is bad. Because you know...actors, directors, athletes, business people...all have different personalities and promote themselves and that is ok. But when a composer does it, the whole world comes down. Honestly, you are obsessed with the word "genius." Zimmer is just speaking his mind. If that comes across as "genius" then that is your perception and your problem. I also found it curious that you never mentioned that Zimmer spoke highly of Williams, Newman, Powell, Arnold, Barry, etc. Zimmer has time and time again praised other composers. Not to mentioned that he mentored countless composers at RCP and they went on to have successful careers. Tell me, how many composers have Williams nurtured? Can you name a composer that has nurtured more successful talents than Zimmer?
I actually really like The Holiday and I do not mind the "over-scored wall of sound effect" whatever that means. When I listen to The Holiday I just hear a romantic score, not wall of sound effects.
Right. This is the type of Zimmer hate I can't stand either. So they hated the sound they thought Zimmer would bring to the new Bond movie. Demanding a return to the John Barry sound. Zimmer actually uses John Barry themes throughout his score and then they deride him for not coming up with his own original work. Hans Zimmer could write and compose a score on par with the legendary Ben-Hur and they would still hate him. His biggest flaw isn't actually his music it's his success. He's become the New York Yankees of film composers.
Great point in bringing up all the composers who came out from his nurturing as major successes. I'm just going to say it again. I love Zimmer's work. His 90s stuff is my favorite. He still has good scores today too.
Hans Zimmer has written music in a wide variety of styles. Those who say all he does is sound design and noise have clearly not heard the music he wrote earlier in his career.
Here are some tracks by him that I would believe even non Zimmer-fans could enjoy. If you don't enjoy it, I would like to hear WHY, put in a grown-up and reasonable way.
The thread is also open to other people who will post Zimmer-tracks for Zimmer-sceptics.
So Zimmer is good because you think people who critique him are unreasonable?
The original post by First Breath asked why people may not like Zimmer, “put in a grown-up and reasonable way”. I respect First Breath because in a different thread their response to why they didn’t like John Williams was very insightful and I enjoyed our back and forth. I subsequently attempted to describe my challenge with Zimmer here.
I don’t really know what the issue is unless my comments are ballooned out of context.
I don’t see Zimmer as having a strong, overall musical point of view. I see him as having consistent habits in his methodology and a drive to experiment, but I don’t see that based on any specific musical drive. Like if he enjoys experimenting, why doesn’t he have a collection of his own handmade weird instruments? Why doesn’t he compose experimental music on the side, outside of films? But it’s not this single point. This single point threads through his career and manner, right up to disliking orchestral approaches to scores and some of his older work - ie. the stuff I prefer and some of which First Breath included here. Why is he so against his older work? It’s like there are two Hans Zimmers - one before 2000 and one after, and the latter despises the former. I mentioned elsewhere that Zimmer’s achilles heel is being overly cerebral and that it tends to produce bland scores. When he’s limited by really specific creative needs, ie. James Bond, I think he does much better.
I think Zimmer ultimately is stuck in how his career has progressed. He started very interesting, trying different musical voices. But then he got a bit stuck on action scores and cranking out the same stuff, which he has said at the time is what he intended, but it’s kind of a “be careful what you wish for scenario”. I think this resulted in him being stifled and being stuck. He tried to break out, and succeeded in part with Gladiator, but then got mired in legal battles over Media Ventures and got stuck with the Pirates franchise which he seemed to get burnt out by. Then along came Nolan and indulged Zimmer’s experimental and cerebral side, where I think for the first time Zimmer got a chance to explore his own musical voice. But I think both of them are too cerebral and while THE DARK KNIGHT, INCEPTION and INTERSTELLAR were good growth points for Zimmer, I think it brought out bad habits around being overly-cerebral about everything. Which is why James Bond was a bit of a breath of fresh air because you know EON keeps an extremely tight grip on their James Bond property.
All of this to say, I just find Zimmer too inconsistent to really like and the fanbase frustrating to be around. So it just doesn’t pay off for me to spend a lot of time paying attention to what Zimmer might be doing next, especially when there are so many other composers who fill that “experimental” slot better than Zimmer. And yes, someone’s attitude and outlook on life does affect the value of their artwork. It’s harder for to accept Zimmer’s more dull creative outputs when it feels like it comes from a place of loathing or boredom. Again, there are far too many other composers to waste my time on ones who don’t seem to have a positive creative outlook. This is not a huge singular point, but again, paints a bigger picture that makes Zimmer less impressive to me.
IMO it’s too bad he turned away so much from his earlier 90s melodic work because I think he was much better at that.
So Zimmer is good because you think people who critique him are unreasonable?
The original post by First Breath asked why people may not like Zimmer, “put in a grown-up and reasonable way”. I respect First Breath because in a different thread their response to why they didn’t like John Williams was very insightful and I enjoyed our back and forth. I subsequently attempted to describe my challenge with Zimmer here.
Yeah but you also start being obsessed with his persona, which takes away your argument. Any time you start getting personal, it distracts your point.
I don’t really know what the issue is unless my comments are ballooned out of context.
I don’t see Zimmer as having a strong, overall musical point of view. I see him as having consistent habits in his methodology and a drive to experiment, but I don’t see that based on any specific musical drive. Like if he enjoys experimenting, why doesn’t he have a collection of his own handmade weird instruments? Why doesn’t he compose experimental music on the side, outside of films? But it’s not this single point. This single point threads through his career and manner, right up to disliking orchestral approaches to scores and some of his older work - ie. the stuff I prefer and some of which First Breath included here. Why is he so against his older work? It’s like there are two Hans Zimmers - one before 2000 and one after, and the latter despises the former. I mentioned elsewhere that Zimmer’s achilles heel is being overly cerebral and that it tends to produce bland scores. When he’s limited by really specific creative needs, ie. James Bond, I think he does much better.
How do you know he doesn't have a collection of handmade weird instruments? Maybe he does. Maybe he keeps those sounds in synth samples? Does someone have to have a collection of weird instruments just to experiment? For Batman v Superman for example, Zimmer went to a exotic instrument specialist to obtain them for the sounds he want to make. He doesn't have to own them. As for why doesn't he compose experimental music on the side, because he is a film composer? Is Zimmer really against his older work? Where are you getting this from? He talks extensively about Crimson Tide, The Lion King, Rain Man, etc. In his tour, he plays The Lion King, The Thin Red Line, Crimson Tide, Driving Miss Daisy, and True Romance. Are there some older work that he hates? Sure, like The Wind, and rumored Beyond Rangoon. But there are newer stuff that he thought he could do better (Pearl Harbor) too. He also hated The Lone Ranger because of the hectic process.
I think Zimmer ultimately is stuck in how his career has progressed. He started very interesting, trying different musical voices. But then he got a bit stuck on action scores and cranking out the same stuff, which he has said at the time is what he intended, but it’s kind of a “be careful what you wish for scenario”. I think this resulted in him being stifled and being stuck. He tried to break out, and succeeded in part with Gladiator, but then got mired in legal battles over Media Ventures and got stuck with the Pirates franchise which he seemed to get burnt out by. Then along came Nolan and indulged Zimmer’s experimental and cerebral side, where I think for the first time Zimmer got a chance to explore his own musical voice. But I think both of them are too cerebral and while THE DARK KNIGHT, INCEPTION and INTERSTELLAR were good growth points for Zimmer, I think it brought out bad habits around being overly-cerebral about everything. Which is why James Bond was a bit of a breath of fresh air because you know EON keeps an extremely tight grip on their James Bond property.
I get your perspective, but why did you pick 2000 as the dividing point? 2000-2010 was Zimmer at the height of him using the orchestra and melodic scoring: Gladiator, Pearl Harbor, The Da Vinci Code, King Arthur, The Last Samurai, Pirates 1-3, Spanglish, Kung Fu Panda, Spirit, Frost/Nixon, Sherlock Holmes, Angels and Demons, etc. Zimmer really delved into the Dunkirk sounds mid-2010 with BvS, Dunkirk, Widows, Inferno, Dune, etc.
All of this to say, I just find Zimmer too inconsistent to really like and the fanbase frustrating to be around. So it just doesn’t pay off for me to spend a lot of time paying attention to what Zimmer might be doing next, especially when there are so many other composers who fill that “experimental” slot better than Zimmer. And yes, someone’s attitude and outlook on life does affect the value of their artwork. It’s harder for to accept Zimmer’s more dull creative outputs when it feels like it comes from a place of loathing or boredom. Again, there are far too many other composers to waste my time on ones who don’t seem to have a positive creative outlook. This is not a huge singular point, but again, paints a bigger picture that makes Zimmer less impressive to me.
IMO it’s too bad he turned away so much from his earlier 90s melodic work because I think he was much better at that.
And no, someone's attitude and outlook on life does not affect the value of their artwork. That is your perception. ANd let's not pretend Zimmer is the only one selling his work this way. Did you not read Brian Tyler's interview with FSM. He was telling a story how he actually recorded burning an instrument to match the subject matter of Those Who Wish Me Dead. He was selling that score like it was hot potatoes.
However, getting back to Zimmer's resume, I still don't understand why you think his melodic work is limited to the 90s. That is just almost objectively false. Like how are any of the scores I mentioned above not melodic? The last point I want to make is, as much as you think Zimmer is just an "experimental guy" now, he is actually one of the last few composers who still writes memorable themes. For sure you have a point with inconsistency. But it is just odd to me you are criticizing the guy who wrote WW84 and Hillbilly Elegy just last year. Who wrote Boss Baby 2 (Clemmensen actually criticized Zimmer for writing TOO much themes) and Bond this year. Going further back, he did The Lion King remake, Planet Earth II and Blue Planet II...all have melodic themes. In the last 20 years, Zimmer is responsible for writing 3 of the most memorable themes in cinema: Pirates, Time, and Wonder Woman. Those Marvel composers had 23 movies to work with and yet Silvestri's Avengers theme was the only thing people remember coming out of the theaters. Inconsistency is a fair criticism. But even inconsistent Zimmer is still more memorable than most composers out there.
Intersting thread. In the 90's Zimmer was just a new voice with some decent scores. At the time I was more interested in scores by people like Goldsmith, Williams, Poledouris, Barry, Doyle, Kamen,Moricone, Scott, Broughton, Elfman,Horner, Howard, Eidelman... and of course scores from composers of the past like Rozsa, Korngold, Newman, Herrmann, Steiner...I liked some of Zimmer's tracks in some of his scores and that was all. Later I found out that a lot of people worked for him in composing his scores. I now tend to think that he is the main reason that music in films with the use of computers has decreased in quality because Hollywood producers demand last minute rewrites and think of music as something that is not that important and very easy to do. Damn when I think of the quality of music Patrick Doyle wrote in the 90's and is asked of him now I am just sad. Eidelman doesn't write anymore... Film music has changed. They mainly demand sound design. It's like most directors feel uncomfortable with melodies. I have reached a point that when I listen to a Zimmer score and like a track I think that there is a ghost writer behind it. Sad but that is how I think. All in all film music nowadays doesn't interest me that much. There so many masterpieces in film music from the past and so many great pieces by composers from the 18th, 19th and 20th centuries that I feel that I am wasting my time listening to mediocre scores that is the main output nowadays. There are very few exceptions unfortunatelly.
Totoro, you posted 13 min after my post. I posted almost 30 min of music. Go ahead and finish before you critique.
Still trolling on a Saturday night? Nothing better to do? Lol.
He's a troll. Ignore him. I'm usually big on being nice and never name calling. He intentionally just posts rude remarks to instigate fights. Move on and don't waste your time.
Totoro, you posted 13 min after my post. I posted almost 30 min of music. Go ahead and finish before you critique.
Still trolling on a Saturday night? Nothing better to do? Lol.
He's a troll. Ignore him. I'm usually big on being nice and never name calling. He intentionally just posts rude remarks to instigate fights. Move on and don't waste your time.
Totoro is not a troll, he is a god of the forest and he never start fights, on the contrary.
But Totoro has a very good taste, specially in film music.
Totoro, you posted 13 min after my post. I posted almost 30 min of music. Go ahead and finish before you critique.
Still trolling on a Saturday night? Nothing better to do? Lol.
You assume that I've never heard that before.
You are wrong, friend.
So you've heard every Zimmer example provided, presumably every Zimmer score he's written, though you're not a Zimmer fan? I don't usually use my time listening to composers I don't care for.
Totoro, you posted 13 min after my post. I posted almost 30 min of music. Go ahead and finish before you critique.
Still trolling on a Saturday night? Nothing better to do? Lol.
You assume that I've never heard that before.
You are wrong, friend.
So you've heard every Zimmer example provided, presumably every Zimmer score he's written, though you're not a Zimmer fan? I don't usually use my time listening to composers I don't care for.
Totoro, you posted 13 min after my post. I posted almost 30 min of music. Go ahead and finish before you critique.
Still trolling on a Saturday night? Nothing better to do? Lol.
You assume that I've never heard that before.
You are wrong, friend.
So you've heard every Zimmer example provided, presumably every Zimmer score he's written, though you're not a Zimmer fan? I don't usually use my time listening to composers I don't care for.
Boy, I am aware of Zimmer since he was credited as Man Who Carries Keyboards in the "The Last Emperor" soundtrack.
I love movies, you know. And Hans is suposed to be a movie composer, right?
So, therefore... I've listen to most of his scores together with the movies. And even tried to listen some outside the movies.
Altought a few of his scores are not awful, I've never heard anything better than mediocre, to say the least.
The best Zimmer score I've heard is "The Thin Red Line". I would give it 4,5 stars out of 10.
So, therefore... I am not impressed with any of the cues presented here since I believe this was the objective of the Zimmer minions, right? Some of them are kind of nice, but not impressive.
But it is just odd to me you are criticizing the guy who wrote WW84 and Hillbilly Elegy just last year. Who wrote Boss Baby 2 (Clemmensen actually criticized Zimmer for writing TOO much themes) and Bond this year .
But it is just odd to me you are criticizing the guy who wrote WW84 and Hillbilly Elegy just last year. Who wrote Boss Baby 2 (Clemmensen actually criticized Zimmer for writing TOO much themes) and Bond this year .
Best thing he ever did, and my alltime fifth favourite score, is BEYOND RANGOON. I've heard murmurs he doesn't like it himself, but I don't care. The whole album should really be enough to convince naysayers, but if I have to mention one track, I guess I'd pick "Waters of Irrawaddy".
I had that CD for a short while in the 90's - bought it cheap second hand - but I didn't much care for the music on it. So this is nothing for me. Sold it on Ebay. Zimmer's music in general doesn't speak to me in a way that I could find his music really interesting. There's just almost(!) nothing there for me. I have a track on a Varese 4 CD compilation that I really like (can't remember its title).
The first time I became aware of Zimmer was A World Apart. I've tried and tried - listened to that CD many times in the store - saw the film two or three times in the cinema back then - but no, the music wasn't for me. Similar thing with Black Rain.
House of Spirits was for a brief time in my collection. I found the music very shallow and unispired. I'm aware of the fact people like it and say this should convince the symphonic oriented crowds. I don't think so.
I've listened to many of Zimmer's scores, even owned three or four CDs. The one I like best is Pacific Heights. MI:2 is also quite good minus the hard rock e-guitar which I generally dislike as a musical additive. Zimmer and his music is just not for me. Never will.
But I highly appreciate him for giving his co-worker the credit they deserve (as far as I know). That is a good thing.
