Ohh btw, Star Wars was infact designed to sound familar so that it would make a movie set in unfamilar settings seem more comfortable. Infact here's a Williams interview where he infact talks about his inflowences.-How were you hired to do Star Wars?
"After my work on Jaws,Steven Spielberg and i became very close.At this time,i did not know George Lucas and nothing of this project called Star Wars.But,before Close Encounters,Steven was implicated in certain phases,as a consultant and friend of Lucas.The more the scenes were delivered,and that the editing and special effects were advancing,Steven saw the movie beeing constructed.At a buisness meeting between George and Steven,George starting talking about the music.He thought of creating a montage of classical music and film music from the golden age.He cited some names to Spielberg;Holtz,Wagner,Prokofiev for the first category and Korngold for the second.According to what Steven told me,he replied"but George,there is a composer who can do all this,John Williams!"Steven then organised a meeting with George Lucas and Marcia,Lucas ex-wife.For the first time,i heard about Star Wars.George made me a detailled description of all the scenes,and we discussed the cited composers for several hours.Three weeks later,Steven Spielberg brought me to his office and told me George Lucas had decided to let me write the music to Star Wars."
-Who motivated this decision by George Lucas,according to you?
"Steven!"(laughs)
-How was your first day of work on Star Wars?
"I saw George Lucas again and he showed me the nearly finished film.Lots of scenes were still incomplete,especially those requiring special effects,but i could imagine them.This rough cut made about 140 minutes so was very close to the definitive version.I then took 2 days to view the film and impregnate myself with it's essence and magic.Then i saw George Lucas again.In one afternoon,we dissected the film,chose spotted the music,talked about the style of themes and their relative importance in the film.George Lucas kept repeating:"i want a theme for each element,associated with situations or characters to create a complete musical environement.It is in that way i composed the music for Star Wars,in addition to two suites.I sat down at the composing table where i re-invested in the universe of Prokofiev,Korngold...but also Stravinsky,Holtz,Walton,Wagner,Elgar....I re-thought my education in terms of "Star Wars" and started writing the music."
-You mentionned many time Korngold.What is the real link between the Star Wars opening theme and the motif to King's Row written by Korngold?
"A link?Hmm,I prefer to say there is a ressemblance rather than a link.I have an affective link with Mr.Korngold.Thematically,the term of ressemblance is more appropriate.Not that I want to avoid all similarities that exist between all the Star Wars themes and the "education"that permited me to write them,but a clarification seems necessary.Without this education,I could never have written Star Wars,the same way that without Beethoven,Wagner would have never been Wagner,without Bach,Mozart or Brahms would have never been great composers.All this forms a chain where at some time we represent a link.I have this affinity with Mr.Korngold,Hildemith,or Elgar,because above education,they represent as composers the masters of an artistic form that is very close to me.When George Lucas asked that Luke's theme be both heroic and idealistic in essence,and presented in a fanfare form,I associated by order Korngold-heroism,Holts-idealism,and Elgar-fanfare.This implies a ressemblance with King's Row and certainly a lot of other things,but thematically,harmonically,and melodically,all notes are mine."
Were there more similar inspirations in the trilogy?
Particularly with the Jawa music in Star Wars.George Lucas had initially mixed those sequences with Ravel's Bolero!Those Jawas and their fluorescent eyes(laughs).For my part,i envisionned something more comical, similar in style to March of the Duck from Peter and the Wolf,or more subtly with his most caustic march,March of the Three Oranges.I wrote a melody,but George rejected it.That's a scoop i'm giving you there(laughs)!I kept this melody,and it became March of the Villains in Superman,the Movie.Lucas was probably right because that music would have made those sequences laughable.I then proposed "i will make you listen to some marches written by Igor Stravinsky and i think it's in that way that we must go".He became a bit pale but said yes.I fact,the weigh and heaviness of some of dozens of ritual dances Stravinsky had witten was in opposition to the comic personna and situations of the Jawas.I then composed the theme"The Litle People Work" that you know and imitated the dancing instruments of Stravinsky.I like that piece a lot."
How did The Imperial March come about?
More naturally(laughs).In fact,the military musical structure is very ancient.In the cinema,all those marches have the same harmonic trajectory and what differenciates them is only the melody,which often relies on a few notes.The Imperial March is built in two parts,and the second refers to the character of Darth Vader.There was my opportunity to break the typical established scheme,to introduce the woodwinds that dominate the melody and opposes the martial brass of the theme.In terms of finished piece,the Imperial March reachs what i expected in regards to Darth Vader and the myth he represents.It's not more or less evil than what we hear in the musical litterature from the past few centuries,but George Lucas knew how to deliver the mythological studies he did to make a modern character,complex and finally human.I did not have to develop the imperial thematic material in Star Wars,because neither Grand Moff Tarkin or Darth Vader deserved such a theme."
What were the best moments for each of the three films?
Williams:
For Star Wars,they were the recording sessions in London.
I had seen George Lucas losing his composure little by little as the film neared completion.We worked a lot toghether in post-production and each week i saw him lose weight and become more insecure about the movie.When i finished writing the music,the film was nealy completed.By then seeing the film again,i had confidence in myself and my music,and by more understanding the impact that we were going to ignite,i asked George to get me a real symphony orchestra.He was at the end of his rope and told me"i don't have any more money,everything has to go in the special effects".He felt beaten because he knew the music he wanted would require a large orchestra.I then answered"the administrator of the LSO is my friend Andre Previn,i'm sure we can arrange something with him".I called Lionel Newman at Fox,Alan Ladd Jr and also talked about it with Steven Spielberg of course.I then called Andre Previn.It was a long conversation."what is all this story about the Force,space battles and Darth Vader?Oh well,you may still come."Andre arranged everything and i got to conduct the famous London Symphony Orchestra.The best moment was the birth of my music played by one of the greatest orchestra in the world.George Lucas,who was still working on certain technical aspects of the film,came to Abbey Road for the sessions.More and more,he recognised the music and it's power.After a first day of draining rehearsals,i played "The Throne Room".The LSO was superb.It was a grandiose moment,and when i turned around,i saw George get up and applaud alone.He embraced me and i saw a glow in his eyes i never saw again.I will never forget that moment.Even today,i am still moved by it.The Empire Strikes Back was different,the means too.I think writing "The Imperial March" was the most intense moment.There was also all this material written for the romance between Han Solo and Princess Leia.On Star Wars,for the material associated with Leia,George wanted something very soft and romanic,very...Tchaikovski.Even if,to some extent,this went against the character of the princess which we saw fighting,resisting torture,George didn't want us to loose sight she was a princess like in Sleeping Beauty,but in a war and unromantic setting.So i wrote a very langorous melody,very feminine,a "love theme".For Empire,George told me the same thing"you take Princess Leia and...Tchaikovski!"Having never written a theme for Solo,i reworked the thematic approach for the princess to conjugate it with Harrison Ford's character.Since we are talking about romantism,i have to cite Yoda's theme,who in the manner of the evolution of the love themes between Star Wars and Empire,is developped and demarks itself from the theme for Obi Wan Kenobi,the theme of the Force.You will understand the best moments for Empire were the writing phase of the music,because they called upon both what had been done in Star Wars and the all new scope that the film Irwin Kershner brought."
Do you consider The Empire Strikes Back as the most accomplished musically"
Williams:
"The final accomplishment was more on Return of the Jedi than Empire.Return had the disadvantage to be the one to conclude the trilogy,implying less "permissions" than on Empire.There was already 4 hours of music written for the previous films,and even if George had added some new twists,Return of the Jedi couldn't be as innovative as the second episode.Musically,there was an enormous of work done harmonically and orchestrally,notably on the Imperial March,and i had to compose certain thematic derivations far from the first two films.The Emperor's theme is the prime example,because George didn't think i could translate all the mysticism of that character into music.Here again,the "Prokofiev" education was important,because masculine chorus were were somewhere invented by this Russian composer,notably in his operas.George was so delighted that he changed his mind on the kind of music needed for Luke's final combats.Jabba's theme was constructed like this too,with a kind of chromatic opposition between the tuba motif and other instruments.I like this slug a lot(laughs).My preference remains with Luke and Leia because the theme had to completely demark itself from the two first love themes.,while sustaining the same atmosphere.The recording of that piece was my best moment on Return of the Jedi,because i interpret my sensibility in the second movement.By this,we reach again the idea of a cycle,and of three acts."
How would you describe your relationship with George Lucas during this first trilogy?
There were two phases.First was Star Wars were our meetings were less structured.With Empire and especially Return of the Jedi,he became far more distant.We had our meetings,and then we could not forget anything,because the next hour,George was not available for the music anymore.Nevertheless,what was enjoyable is that during those meetings,these work phases,he was 200% concentrated.For an entire morning,generally,we discussed the way to go,the style to adopt.He listened to rare demos that I proposed and we then discussed how he felt.Only on rare occasions did he made me re-write a melody or a motif.The advantage with him is that he is a director,so he has a creative mind.The other advantage is that he is a producer and knows better than anybody the importance of a budget,the notion of time,money and trust.There is also the fact that,in the same way than Steven Spielberg,he controls his films from the first moment to the last.Without neglecting the work of Irwin Kershner and then Ricard Marquand,because they were brilliand directors,George Lucas "decides" everything.No money or computer will compose an opening fanfare,I know it and so does he.So if you fit the mould of "trust,money,talent",then everything goes well with George...and everything went well."
Are there example where his choices have had priority on yours?
"99% of the music on the trilogy is "our" choices.We have made more compromises than adjustments in regards to our first ideas.But never have I had to compose a melody that went against my tastes.Never did i had to radically change a theme that i had proposed to him.I told you already,everything is professional with George,mistakes are virtually forbiden,even forbiden altogether!(laughs)That famous scene in Mos Eisley is the choice of George.He had shot almost all of the cantina scene without telling me ,even though music was meant to go in there.When he showed it to me,i was stupefied,and I couldn't see a way to write music to this without hurting my partition.At first,he asked me "do we really need music for this scene?"Since there were extra-terrestrial musicians,I could not answer anything else than yes.There,he looked at me and asked "John,what kind of music do you like apart classical?"I told him "jazz,but this has nothing to do with..."Then he told me "now it does.Come back in a week with extraterrestrial jazz!"On the spot,I was disturbed but then played along.I composed two pieces,the first Cantina Band in a Benny Goodman fashion,and the second,Cantina Band #2 in a Duke Ellington fashion.I summoned all kinds of percussionists,clarinetists,trumpetists...and we recorded the pieces.George Lucas then listened to the pieces then asked me "how did you transcribe the jazz of Duke Ellington into extraterrestrial language?We keep!" Six years later,when we started talking about the scenes in Jabba's lair,he once again gave me his trust when at a point,he only wanted rock artists to do those scenes."
What did you hink of Shadows of the Empire?
"Hmmmm,lets say I would have like that the project was done differently.I was put against an already finished product,and even though the music is as much the property of Lucasfilm than mine,my music escaped me to be given to a certainly talented composer,but with whom I would have liked to have had some discussions regarding the disk.Certain passages please me,others less,because they don't follow the "cycle" we were evoquing.If the music is itself well done and pleasant,i would say there was a lack of tack on the part of Lucasfilm that was much less pleasant.Fans nevertheless seem to liked it."
And everything was erased with The Phantom Menace?
"George Lucas made everything possible so that all went well.We were not in derived products.We were back to Star Wars,George was back as director,and I came back for the music."
You seemed impatient to return to the saga of the Skywalkers!
"I was very exited and indeed impatient.George Lucas was far less talkative on episode 1 than he was on the first trilogy.We had several discussions beforehands,but there still was a perticular vageness.We had many meetings,and in octobre 1998,when George was ready,the first thing I asked was "give me a copy of The Phantom Menace,then we talk about it."I then saw TPM,and from this point on,I really started working on the movie.You must know,I don't like to read scripts,even less what they might become in visual language.Rarely,I have composed themes before seeing any images and on TPM,it was so".George and I then reviewed the process of writing the music.That was in the middle of octobre like 22 years before.We dissected the film in the same maner:"at this point,i would like this type of music,at this other point,i would that type..." Even if George doesn't use any technical terms,all his indications are valuable and with time,i learned to decipher them easily.Most of the time,it's in the manner of"there,it has to go very fast with lots of brass!There,I need a grand melody like Luke and Leia;at this point,choirs would be required..."And then,there was the cherry on the cake as to the space battle scenes.As the film is going at a flying speed,and scenes were alternating rapidly to others,it was more dificult for him to describe his musical ideas..Then,George would stand up and start mumbling bizzare chants:"Zuuuup,vraaam",making gestures with his hands.That was as amusing as instructive,and i swear by the end of those meetings,the musical style was perfectly set for The Phantom Menace.I had many meetings like this one,and then I returned to my Amblin office where I saw the film for two days non stop,then I spaced a few hours between viewings thinking of what themes to write.In all,I saw The Phantom Menace approximatly 50 times before taking my pen and writing a the first notes on my music paper.I paragraphed more than 900 pages in all.John Newfeld and his team did at at the same time their work of transcribtion."
You recorded the score in febuary,how did those sessions go?
"Admirably well.Like for Star Wars,I started by making George listen to most of the themes to check out his first reactions.They were positive and we started by recording the opening fanfare,that mutually,we agreed to use again.I couldn't see how to start a new trilogy by a different theme!"
Do you have any anecdotes about those recording sessions?
"There are always certain surprise effects that we can't predict.Since George was discovering the music,he was reacting instinctively.When we played The Arrival at Tatooine and The Flag Parade,or Gui-gon's noble end,i could see he was thrilled in the studio next to us.From my desk,I was seeing him giving thumbs up signs.In total,we had about 2 or 3 problems about the writing,notably on the scenes relative to the character of queen Amidala,that I had put much more musical emphasis than George wanted it."she is young,sad,romantic...and very Tchaikovski"But George had his own ideas.He explained to me this differnce in appreciation,and I better understood what queen Amidala meant to him,and already,the aspirations for that character in Episode 2.There was also"He is the Chosen One",where George made me use the Force theme with more emphasis.I re-wrote the piece and then everyone was happy.Then,there was Duel of the Fates,with all those voices.The Emperor had such an impact that adding voices for the duel between Gui-Gon and Darth Maul seemed indispensable.I firts wrote a motif of about 10 notes that we hear in The Drion Invasion and the Appearance of Darth Maul,then started writing 5 developpements to keep only 3 finally.We can speak of a ressemblance with Benjamin Britten or Igor Stravinsky,because conciously,this was the case.I discovered an ancient celtic poem in my readings of Robert Graves.There were two couplets that interested me in particular:"behind the words lies a horrible combat,while another rages on in the mind."and"behind the mind is hiding the will,behind the will the force or the misery of an existance>"Indirectly,i found the spirit of Star Wars in those words and a certain form of ritual in the physical and moral combats that George Lucas character deliver.I had the poem translated in several languages:russian,latin,grek,slav...but that didn't work out,because certain sounds seemed to familiar.At that point,I hesitated to create an extraterrestrial language lik we had done on Return of the Jedi.But I couldn't stop thinking that this mythology had to be connected to our human culture,even if very old.We then tried Sanscript and the sound mix of occidental/orchestral and oriental/choral gave birth to the vital force in Duel of the Fates.The musical part had it's place and concerves all it's importance,but the choral parts brought by itself the spirituality and mysticism that surround George's characters.When George Lucas saw the choir arrive,he first thought about english or latin.When I said we were recorsing in sanscript,he made a jump and said:"In sanscript?but John,that language is incomprehensible,people might get confused or disoriented."Everyone took it's place,orchestra and choir.I wanted to record a book,and I told George"you will hear an antique mass where two men do battle,where Good and Evil do combat in a fight to the death to forge a destiny."The first piece was recorded and George was stupefied.We saw each other in the control room and then he told me:"John,that's brilliant.We keep this for the End Credits".There was then several recordings,certain for the final combats in the film,others much longer for the End Credits and the disk."
Lots of our readers said they were disappointed by the lack of orchestral ambition in Duel of the Fates.
"The orchestral part was really secondary,I insist.If I had made all the decisions,then I would have recorded only the choral part without any orchestra at all.But for the film,and in terms of film music,that would have been impossible because that "sound" would have attracted too much the attention of the spectator.You know,it's like a rupture in the form,but we are staying in the spiritual universe of Star Wars.And,your readers must not be so impatient.Duel of the Fates is also a theme for the future and the restriction of the orchestral part to the profit of the chorus in Episode 1 will serve a very different function in episode 2 and 3.Even without knowing percisely the ideas of George for the next movie,I can warranty you that.You know,the problem is that you have the old trilogy too well memorised and you memorised it as "one" entity.To re -do what has been done in the past is impossible,but please,make an effort of an advance vision in the long term and remembering that The Phantom Menace is only a third of the new adventures,with the advantages and disadvantage of thematic restriction that can result.In other words,you still have six years to "understand" the music for the new trilogy."
The last minute of The Throne Room and End Titles is missing in The Phantom Menace.An episode that ends without a fanfare is almost like an orphan!
"You react more in terms of a purist of film music.George Lucas has other priorities,and given the imperatives of this End Credits,a fanfare followed by Anakin's theme would have been too mechanical in respect to the first trilogy.On Empire Striles Back,I decided,not on The Phantom Menace.First,there was Augie's Great Municipal Band,and like the Ewok celebration,it was so thought of by George Lucas that I just transcribed his indications into music.There can't be any regrets here,the musical instructions came very percisely from George Lucas."
About 'Duel of the Fates' UPDATED
I said to George Lucas: You will listen to an antique mass where two men confront each other, where good and evil combat each other in a fight to the death to forge a destiny... The piece was recorded and George was astounded. We then talked in the control room and he said: "John, this is brilliant, we keep that for the end titles. There were many other recordings, some for the combat as such, others for the disk and the end titles."
Is it not Powaqqatsi by Philip Glass?
"Effectively,that was the "thought" of George Lucas.This then fixed a skeletton to the last minutes of the film and I adapted myself to it.Maybe things will be different for Episode2,maybe not."
Certain sequences of The Phantom Menace,especially the final battles,do not suit well your partition.
There were matters which I could not control. I wrote my first partition on a first edit of the movie. Then, George Lucas showed the film to many people including Steven Spielberg and Ron Howard... and a second edit was made. I made adequate and necessary changes, but most of the time, I had to suppress complete cues. The "coherence" done during the scoring sessions in febuary was as linear as possible. At that time there were no problems with George. So I had to recalibre my compositions in function to the new edit.
After these new sessions, George again showed The Phantom Menace, and some changes to the film were again made, and obviously, this "messed up" my second "coherence". George Lucas prefered mixing in certain passages of my music taken from other places, rather than ask for a re-score, which I could not have done anyways. As a musician I would have liked that things went differently. My first reaction as an artist was to transmit him a form of disapprobation, that, I think, he understood. He made the choice that seemed nessesary, but that artistically embarrass me. I bear no grudges though, because the whole experience was extraordinary. Now that the film is out in the U.S., I can permit myself this slight reticence."
Sounds more like a composer nightmare to me, urgh...
Working on the film was still a great experience and I'm waiting for the green light for episode 2
Did you have any reaction about the bad reviews the film got when it was released?
You know,the appreciation of critics interests me much less than those of the public.The Phantom Menace made 450 million dollars in the United States,that surely means something.It's up to George Lucas to make the necessary rectifications,if there are any to make!The Sony classical disk sold 2 million copies in the world and I think that it will reach 3 million,numbers superior to The Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi,but inferior to Star Wars.I wont give any conclusions since those are such unbelivable numbers.I hope,during this interview,to have lifted the doubts of those who were disappointed by the disk,popularity does not exclude critics.I think I did the best that I could do,and to your readers now to undestand and see The Phantom Menace with George Lucas point of view,which,with the passing years,might now be different from theirs.I hope at least part of the scepticism will fade."
And Episode2 ?
"I'm waiting for the green light from George Lucas."
Star Wars Insider #44 Williams interview(TPM just after it's theatrical release,or just before,there's no date on the mag.)
...the character Jar Jar has his own music,and of course Anakin has a theme,and if you listen carefully,you will hear hints of what's to become of him in later incarnations.Then there's entirely new material for characters like Darth Maul,and there's a theme for Anakin's mother,and a theme for the QUEEN,a theme for the droid army..."
"I use a pen and paper as a tool to write the music.I don't write it on a computer.It's all hand written."
-Favourite themes?
"I always loved playing The Imperial March,and love playing Princess Leia's music,and Yoda's"
-Any other scores that stand out in your mind?
"The Reivers "...",another was Jane Eyre,which was a television production i did in London years ago,but music I've enjoyed playing in concerts over the years.Robert Altman's Images,which has some unusual music I still find of interest.There are others,Close Encounters with Spielberg has always been something that I remember"
-Is there a difference between orchestral scores and traditionnal classical music?
"Well,concert music requires 100 percent of the intellectual and aural attention from the audience.But in films you have to understand that we've got maybe 20 percent of the audience's attention,and our role there is to support the other aurally -prepared materials of dialogue and sound effects-the other 80 percent,or 50 percent if it's a quiet love scene.
What seems to be unique about the Star Wars films is that the nature of the films has been that I've had more room to create music that will come out of the film and more or less stand on it's own-not as serious concert music at the level of Mozart or Beethoven,but in the area of light music,this material usually lives very well outside the films than most film score music.Somewhat in Star Wars,it's more of an equal partner to the dialogue.It's closer to Opera in that sense"
-Who were your inspirations as a composer?
"...I played for Jerry Goldsmith when I was a youngster and was always ,then and now,very impressed by him..."
(He also mentions Stravinsky,Prokofiev,Hidermith,and Herrmann)
Who were your inspirations as a composer?
"When I started as a pianist and I worked in the film studio,I had no idea that I would compose for film.But what I brought with me when I went to Columbia was a great love for jazz,which I grew up with,and also for the 20th century modern composers.I was very interested in Stravinsky,and Prokofiev and Hindemith.I was enormously impressed with Bernard Herrmann,always.Also,even though he's a contemporary,when I was a youngster I played for Jerry Goldsmith and was always,then and now,very impressed by him.
I've been particulary facinated with the emigres of Europe in the 1930's,people like Max Steiner and Enrich Korngold,but also Vernon Duke and Kurt Weill,who came with director Billy Wilder and Ernst Lubitsch.They brought this tremendous European culture.
In a certain sense,my colleagues and I are the artistic granchildren of these men.We have been the beneficiary of a rich tradition that grew up here in the early days of sound,the 1930's and 40's.I"m just old enough to have connected with and worked for many of these wonderful people,which makes me enormously fortunate to have experienced that musical life,and brought it with me into situations like wonderful opportunities that George Lucas has presented to me."