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 Posted:   Sep 27, 2005 - 3:04 AM   
 By:   markgso   (Member)

And Glory has a nice theme from Prokofiev's Ivan the Terrible, which is sort of the "chorale" theme (do^-re^-mi-sol^-mi^-fa-fa-mi-mi...)

plus the fife and drum theme is the same traditional tune used by Jerry Fielding in his Outlaw Josey Wales score, in exactly the same arrangement (then segues into the Prokofiev melody)

 
 
 Posted:   Sep 27, 2005 - 7:11 AM   
 By:   sergioleone   (Member)

again the 4 notes:

The Land before Time:
Track 6: "The Rescue..."

an interesting exercise: to know in how many scores he used this 4 notes-motif.. 20, 30?

im wondering if Mr Horners door-bell sounds as these 4 notes-motif!!!! he is obsesed by death with these 4 notes!!!!! (perhaps he also put these musical notes on his cellular :-)

 
 
 Posted:   Sep 27, 2005 - 7:35 AM   
 By:   gumdrops1   (Member)

On one level --- duh.
On another level --- the whole subject is plain stupid. ALL COMPOSERS ARE GUILTY OF SELF PLAGIARISM.

It's what is known as their SIGNATURE.
I see no one complaining about the scores of Jerry Fielding, where the same several bars of music appear throughout a majority of his compositions. What about Miklos Rozsa? PLEEZE.
I love Miklos and his signatures are repeated throughout a MAJORITY of his scores. Leonard Rosenman? You betcha. John Barry? State the obvious please. Even the GOD that everyone worships, John Williams, is guilty of plagiarism. Did any of you pick up on his plagiarized music he lifted from Debussy's Afternoon with aFawn or some other similiar Debussy title that he used for the mothership sequence in CLOSE ENCOUNTERS? My mother played Debussy all the time when I was growing up. And when I saw CLOSE ENCOUNTERS and heard Williams'
music for the final act --- I said,"Hey. wait a second. I'VE HEARD THAT BEFORE!"

So BIG DEAL.

 
 
 Posted:   Sep 27, 2005 - 10:18 AM   
 By:   sergioleone   (Member)

again the 4 notes:

Project X
Track 8: "Bluebeards Flight"
(1:05)

 
 
 Posted:   Sep 27, 2005 - 11:36 AM   
 By:   George A Flaxman   (Member)

If Plagiarism is a hanging matter... Is self-Plagiarism suicide ?.

 
 Posted:   Sep 27, 2005 - 12:46 PM   
 By:   Jon A. Bell   (Member)

Well, okay, what the hell -- I'll play the game, too. Below is my list of Horner scores and their "references" to other scores -- and in some cases, outright lifts:

1.) Battle Beyond the Stars = Most egregiously, Star Trek: The Motion Picture, Alexander Nevsky

2.) Humanoids from the Deep = The Unanswered Question (Charles Ives), Shostakovich’s 5th Symphony, 4th movement, The Boys from Brazil, The Swarm

3.) Wolfen = The Unanswered Question (Charles Ives), which also forms the basis of Khan’s theme in ST II

4.) Star Trek II = (See above), Alexander Nevsky

5.) Star Trek III = Romeo and Juliet, The Blue Max

6.) Cocoon = The Natural by Randy Newman, and literally 30 seconds of music, note for note (although re-orchestrated), re-used from ST II – this is the most shocking example, and one which jolted me right out of the movie (during a dramatic boat chase scene.) There’s simply no defending this re-use of this musical passage in a film that came out only 1-2 years after ST II.

7.) Aliens = Capricorn One, ST-III, Khatchaturian’s Gayane ballet suite (re-used for no apparent reason in later Horner scores like Patriot Games, Sneakers, etc.)

8.) Glory = themes by Prokofiev, including note-for-note lifts from the Lt. Kije suite, Orff’s Carmina Burana, and others, as people have pointed out

9.) Gorky Park = parts of Cat People

10.) Willow = Robert Schumann’s 4th Symphony, 1st movement (the Willow theme, basically “re-timed”); the Elora Danan theme is lifted, note for note, from an old Bulgarian folk song (Mysterious Voices of Bulgaria, Vol. 1, track 11)

11.) Krull = Richard Strauss’s Alpine Symphony, parts of Alex North’s “The Agony and the Ecstacy.” (Regardless, this is one of the best scores Horner's ever written; I'd die happy if I could write a symphony as powerful and complex as "Krull.")

12.) Sneakers = heavily influenced by John Adams, Philip Glass and Steve Reich (minimalist music; 20th-century orchestral)

13.) Titanic = Courage Under Fire, Enya’s Book of Days (both used in the temp)

14.) Enemy at the Gates = John William’s Schindler’s List (which some people argue is taken from another symphony, although I can’t remember which one right now)

15.) A Beautiful Mind = Horner’s own Bicentennial Man, which was taken from Sneakers, which was taken from Adams, Glass and Reich (above)

16.) Journey of Natty Gann = parts of Copland’s Appalachian Spring (or is it another Copland piece?)

17.) Something Wicked this Way Comes = somewhat "influenced" by the Imperial March (Williams) and Herrmann's "Mysterious Island" (still a great main title, though)

Having said all this, I like a lot of Horner's music (he's one of the top 3 composers I have in my collection, along with Williams and Goldsmith), but it pains me that the guy not only resorts to lifting from other sources, but won't acknowledge that he does. If I were Ron Howard, I would've forced him to re-write that ST-II piece he used in "Cocoon," or fired him.

-- Jon

 
 
 Posted:   Sep 27, 2005 - 2:55 PM   
 By:   Howard L   (Member)

THE ALL-PURPOSE REBUTTAL TO HORNER APOLOGISTS
(cut and pasted, appropriately, from their own words...to be copied and pasted, even more appropriately, to future threads):

The music fits all his films like a glove!.....and more importantly they are all listenable(with the odd exception!)

NEVER AN ISSUE, NEVER AT ISSUE. IRRELEVANT.

Then don't listen to his music!

NEVER AN ISSUE, NEVER AT ISSUE. IRRELEVANT.

But the truth is that James Horner's music is indicitive of most film scores today...

EXACTLY. IF HE'D HAVE PULLED HIS ACT DURING THE GOLDEN AGE HE'D HAVE BEEN RUN OUT OF TOWN ON A RAIL...BY HIS CONTEMPORARIES.

If you want to talk about stealing other people's music then look no further than Goldsmith...Jerry Goldsmith is my favorite composer and he has done that a few times...

OTHER PEOPLE'S? EDUCATE YOURSELF ON THE SUBJECT OF QUOTING, FOOTNOTING & PARODYING. HIS OWN?? LOOK UP FILM MUSIC PENAL CODE & NOTE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN PETTY THEFT AND GRAND LARCENY.

He's probably the most well known film composer (save John Williams and Henry Mancini) on the planet. Success breeds contempt.

OSAMA BIN LADEN IS THE MOST WELL-KNOWN PERSON ON THE PLANET. SUCCESS BREEDS INFAMY.

However, I've also long since followed Ron Pulliam's advice and learned to ignore it.

AGREED. HORNER APOLOGISTS SHOULDN'T BE SEEN AND SHOULDN'T BE HEARD.

Why all the Horner bashing?

ACCUSING ONE(S) OF BASHING IS THE LAST REFUGE OF APOLOGISTS, FOR "BASHING" APPLIES TO WILDLY UNFOUNDED CRITICISM WHEREAS OUR MAN JAMES EARNS EVERYTHING HE GETS, PRAISE & SCORN ALIKE.

Give him a break!!!

SEE ALL OF THE ABOVE.

 
 Posted:   Sep 27, 2005 - 4:58 PM   
 By:   Joe Sikoryak   (Member)

Speaking of Sneakers---

How many of you folks have heard Branford Marsalis' Romances for Saxophone with music by Michel Colombier, Debussy and others. There's a lot more in common between that album and Horner's score than just the soloist.

Go to Amazon and play a clip:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B0000026EH/qid=1127850314/sr=8-3/ref=pd_bbs_3/102-2996543-8905755?v=glance&s=music&n=507846

 
 Posted:   Sep 27, 2005 - 5:11 PM   
 By:   Moonie   (Member)

again the 4 notes:

Project X
Track 8: "Bluebeards Flight"
(1:05)




If you get all worked up over 4 notes its a wonder you like anything.
sd

 
 Posted:   Sep 27, 2005 - 5:13 PM   
 By:   Scott M (Oldsmith)   (Member)



He's probably the most well known film composer (save John Williams and Henry Mancini) on the planet. Success breeds contempt.

OSAMA BIN LADEN IS THE MOST WELL-KNOWN PERSON ON THE PLANET. SUCCESS BREEDS INFAMY.


Wow, comparing James Horner (whatever his merits or faults) to Osama Bin Laden. I never thought I'd see the day. I understand your point here, but jeez.

Besides, I always thought the most well-known person on the planet was Britney Spears.

 
 
 Posted:   Sep 27, 2005 - 5:23 PM   
 By:   moviescore   (Member)

The entire "Charging Fort Wagner" sequence is another transparent rejiggering by Horner, this time of the opening movement of Carl Orff's dramatic cantata "Carmina Burana."

Admittedly, that cue is indeed inspired by Carmina Burana, but it's not lifting anything note for note. Horner isn't exactly the only film composer who has been inspired by Orff - it happens all the time.

At least in films like "Greystoke" and "Excalibur," the composers from whom the extra music got borrowed received a mention alongside that of the primary composer.

Yes, but in the case of Excalibur they actually used the original "Carmina Burana"! They didn't do that in Glory.

mikael @ mftm

 
 
 Posted:   Sep 27, 2005 - 6:57 PM   
 By:   Tall Guy   (Member)

I'd like to make a case for there being NO SUCH THING as Self-Plagiarism.

One cannot steal from oneself.

Plagiarism is the act of taking someone else's work and passing it off as one's own.

Self-plagiarism" isn't, therefore, a possibility. One doesn't take one's own work and pass it off as one's work. That's redundant and impossible.


Wise words, Ron. And so they should be - I wrote 'em! From June last year:

"I just want to mention that self-plagiarism is an oxymoron. Plagiarism is the act of taking someone else's words and ideas and presenting them as your own. Therefore, if they're your ideas to start with, it's not plagiarism, it's repetition or self-quoting."

Ironic, no?!

Chris

 
 Posted:   Sep 27, 2005 - 8:22 PM   
 By:   Hadrian   (Member)

The "Main Title" and "End Credit" of RED HEAT is Prokofiev's "The Philosophers" movement from CANTATA FOR THE 20TH ANNIVERSARY OF THE OCTOBER REVOLUTION. Not "sounds like" or "inspired by" but IS Prokofiev's "The Philosophers"! Nowhere on the soundtrack album is Prokofiev's name mentioned or in the movie credits (I checked) for that matter. I think this is the most egregious example of Horner's plagiarism.

 
 Posted:   Sep 27, 2005 - 8:31 PM   
 By:   Hadrian   (Member)

Even the GOD that everyone worships, John Williams, is guilty of plagiarism. Did any of you pick up on his plagiarized music he lifted from Debussy's Afternoon with aFawn or some other similiar Debussy title that he used for the mothership sequence in CLOSE ENCOUNTERS? My mother played Debussy all the time when I was growing up. And when I saw CLOSE ENCOUNTERS and heard Williams'
music for the final act --- I said,"Hey. wait a second. I'VE HEARD THAT BEFORE!"

So BIG DEAL.


I'd like to see specific details where John Williams did this. How far within Debussy's piece (the one you are not even sure of its name)? What are the track timings for the CLOSE ENCOUNTERS music you are speaking about? Does it just sound similar or is it exactly the same?

The problem with Horner is there are dozens of examples where themes he has passed as his own are EXACTLY THE SAME as other composers.

 
 Posted:   Sep 27, 2005 - 8:40 PM   
 By:   drivingmissdaisy   (Member)

I'm not surprised Horner probably will NEVER do a concert, one of you folks out there would be yelling YAH YAH YAH, we've heard that in an old Copeland piece, play something new...

The Something Wicked with the Star Wars is stretching I'm afraid.

 
 Posted:   Sep 27, 2005 - 9:03 PM   
 By:   Heath   (Member)

This kind of thievery would not have happened under the old Hollywood studio system. That was the great thing about Gershenson and Newman; for better or worse, they expected their staff composers to be original. Thus you get incredible creative variety in the scores of Goldsmith, Williams, Mancini etc.

Sure, Goldsmith, for example, might borrow the odd phrase/orchestration from Stravinsky or Bartok, but the vast majority of his work was completely original.

 
 
 Posted:   Sep 27, 2005 - 9:49 PM   
 By:   monkey   (Member)

yes, you old f**kers. everything was better in the old days. Are you not sad about starting to sound like the parodies your generations did in the 70s?

I, for one, cherish the output of our present day ´plagiarists´ like Horner (except Radio) and Elfman. And even folks like Jeff Rona and Antonio Pinto - they take the minimalist approach of composing to new levels I´m sure 'Benny' Herrmann would have approved of (and I hate folks that call Herrmann benny or bernie, including myself). Inventive new colorings. Who cares if they are not done by an orchestra (though in most cases they are)! The point is that modern film music that most of you ignoramuses call drones are a development of the sound palette that you are too essentialist to crasp. And by this essentialist position, you end up as neglectable voices, droning on in the undulating mass of ignorance.

Thank you.

 
 Posted:   Sep 27, 2005 - 10:32 PM   
 By:   Jon A. Bell   (Member)

I'm not surprised Horner probably will NEVER do a concert, one of you folks out there would be yelling YAH YAH YAH, we've heard that in an old Copeland piece, play something new...

The Something Wicked with the Star Wars is stretching I'm afraid.


Well, I said it seemed "influenced" -- specifically, "Something Wicked's" Main Title theme does bear a resemblance to the Imperial March, and the underlying agitated strings definitely feel like the "storm" motif in Herrmann's "Mysterious Island."

I don't think (nor do I say) that Horner specifically "borrowed" from these films, but the similarities are interesting.

-- Jon

 
 
 Posted:   Sep 27, 2005 - 11:02 PM   
 By:   SPQR   (Member)

John A. Bell said:

"16.) Journey of Natty Gann = parts of Copland’s Appalachian Spring (or is it another Copland piece?)"


Ahh, but don't forget his 'borrowing' the forlorn horns, rolling timpani, and chirping winds from of one of the Sea Interlude's from Britten's PETER GRIMES (Track 8 on the you know what).

But, so as avoid the impression of complete bias in the matter, Goldsmith's own ISLAND'S IN THE STREAM owes the same Sea Interlude a thanks as well.

 
 Posted:   Sep 28, 2005 - 12:52 AM   
 By:   Jim Wilson Redux   (Member)

Horner's "Something Wicked" does indeed resemble "The Imperial March" from TESB (but then, Williams' Main Title for Star Wars reminded me of Korngold's "King's Row."

A direct lift of Horner's is his use of a theme from Copland's "Our Town" for "Field of Dreams."

NPR used to have a page that compared samples of Horner's score for "Perfect Storm" with similar classical themes. It appears to be missing when you do a search on the NPR site.

 
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