"The Planet Krypton" also bears a stylistic resemblance to Strauss' "Thus Spake Zarathustra" -- and fittingly, as the Strauss piece is based on Nietzsche's book (of the same name) which deals with the "Ubermensch" -- i.e. "Superman"!
Yes, it's a safe bet someone temped that scene with, or requested something similar to, "Theme from 2001." The scene's imagery, moving through space towards the red sun, then continuing on towards the planet itself, is suggestive of the opening of "2001" as well.
(Christopher Reeve used to tell a funny story about how when he first informed his father, a college literature professor, I think, that he had landed the role of Superman, dad was very excited at the prospect of his son performing in such a famous play of George Bernard Shaw's. You know . . . "Man and Superman"?)
Hey, while I've got you classical music experts gathered here in this thread, in Williams' "Prisoner of Azkaban," the comical track "Aunt Marge's Waltz" seems to be mimicking or making fun of a certain piece from the classical repertoire, but I've never put my finger on which one. The exaggeratedly climactic finale of the piece in particular seems to be parodying something very specific, which I know I've heard before, but I can't name it. Anybody know?
Hey, while I've got you classical music experts gathered here in this thread, in Williams' "Prisoner of Azkaban," the comical track "Aunt Marge's Waltz" seems to be mimicking or making fun of a certain piece from the classical repertoire, but I've never put my finger on which one. The exaggeratedly climactic finale of the piece in particular seems to be parodying something very specific, which I know I've heard before, but I can't name it. Anybody know?
I've wondered the same, but unless somebody can prove something different, I think it's JW channeling Strauss's Viennese waltzes in a generic sort of way.
Hey, while I've got you classical music experts gathered here in this thread, in Williams' "Prisoner of Azkaban," the comical track "Aunt Marge's Waltz" seems to be mimicking or making fun of a certain piece from the classical repertoire, but I've never put my finger on which one. The exaggeratedly climactic finale of the piece in particular seems to be parodying something very specific, which I know I've heard before, but I can't name it. Anybody know?
It's a "next of kin" or a tip of the hat to Rossini's The Thieving Magpie, especially it's ascending / descending and the climax.
I´ve always asked myself if it´s a coincidence that Williams seem to have taken some... erm, 'inspiration' for the Empire's March from Prokofiev's Romeo & Juliet ballet (from 'Montagues and Capulets' specifically).
I've wondered the same, but unless somebody can prove something different, I think it's JW channeling Strauss's Viennese waltzes in a generic sort of way.
It's really a lot more like a Prokofiev waltz. Nothing specific, that I know of, but very much in the same sound world.
agreed. "Firebird" is extraordinary. love the "The Princesses' Game With The Golden Apples" cue, and of course that finale.
my favorite Williams' tip of the hat to Stravinsky though will always be "The Intersection Scene" from "War of the Worlds". clever homage to "Dance of the Earth" there, especially around the 2 minute mark
Hey, while I've got you classical music experts gathered here in this thread, in Williams' "Prisoner of Azkaban," the comical track "Aunt Marge's Waltz" seems to be mimicking or making fun of a certain piece from the classical repertoire, but I've never put my finger on which one. The exaggeratedly climactic finale of the piece in particular seems to be parodying something very specific, which I know I've heard before, but I can't name it. Anybody know?
To me, the finale of that track always sounded, not so much like a quote, but more like a (loosely based-upon) parody of "Ride of the Valkyries", musically mocking that piece's importance. But I don't know the other possible references, which might be even closer.
I've wondered the same, but unless somebody can prove something different, I think it's JW channeling Strauss's Viennese waltzes in a generic sort of way.
It's really a lot more like a Prokofiev waltz. Nothing specific, that I know of, but very much in the same sound world.
Hey, while I've got you classical music experts gathered here in this thread, in Williams' "Prisoner of Azkaban," the comical track "Aunt Marge's Waltz" seems to be mimicking or making fun of a certain piece from the classical repertoire, but I've never put my finger on which one. The exaggeratedly climactic finale of the piece in particular seems to be parodying something very specific, which I know I've heard before, but I can't name it. Anybody know?
Reading this thread gives the impression that JW has never written anything original.
I'm wondering how do you know he DELIBERATELY used various bits and pieces from classical composers' works? All composers have thousands of bits and pieces from other composers' works implanted in their memories over a great many years and are bound to "accidentally" and unknowingly sometimes include the first 5 notes (or even the middle 5 notes) from one of them without even remembering from where they originally came.
Reading this thread gives the impression that JW has never written anything original.
That's not at all what most contributors to this thread are implying. We rather point out his musical literacy that allows him to incorporate conscious quote of pre-existing works and styles for a certain effect.
I'm wondering how do you know he DELIBERATELY used various bits and pieces from classical composers' works?
Just two examples: When talking about his music to JAWS, he himself mentioned somewhere (perhaps in the DVD/BluRay extras?) that he incorporated a "Korngoldian fanfare" into the boat chase music. And in the motorcycle chase from INDY 4, he directly quotes Brahms' "Academic Festival Overture" when they speed through the university's library. So, although I agree that sometimes you may have a snippet of music in your head where you don't know if you have heard it or came up with it yourself, there are examples where Williams uses musical quotes in a very deliberate and thoughtful way.
How about a quote of John Williams' on a classical:
"The opening eight bars of the Andante of Brahms’s B-flat Piano Concerto shine with a luster that places them high among the many melodic masterpieces this composer has given us. With a range of slightly over an octave, the home key of B flat brings a glowing warmth after the rousing Appassionato in D minor.
I don’t know why Brahms chose the cello to present this arioso. However, with its vocal characteristics and breathtaking control, always capable of producing the suggestion of portamento, it’s hard to imagine any other instrument for this role. The cello and this tune seem destined to come together, and we are once again in great debt to Herr Brahms."
Star Wars' score was all about hitting people with something vaguely -- or indeed overtly -- familiar.
I doubt that most people watching Star Wars were familiar with the opening fanfare from Korngold's Kings Row, which is probably what Williams was counting on when he virtually copied it. Play the first five notes of the Korngold to anyone as a quiz question and it'll be identified as Star Wars every time.
I never heard Star Wars with Kings Row, but did hear some Kings Row in Superman.
And get this..Kings Row Score by Erich Wolfgang Korngold WAS NOT nominated for Best Score in 1942. What were them Music Branch Thinking?
Star Wars' score was all about hitting people with something vaguely -- or indeed overtly -- familiar.
I doubt that most people watching Star Wars were familiar with the opening fanfare from Korngold's Kings Row, which is probably what Williams was counting on when he virtually copied it. Play the first five notes of the Korngold to anyone as a quiz question and it'll be identified as Star Wars every time.
I never heard Star Wars with Kings Row, but did hear some Kings Row in Superman.
And get this..Kings Row Score by Erich Wolfgang Korngold WAS NOT nominated for Best Score in 1942. What were them Music Branch Thinking?
One thing to remember is that not everyone is necessarily experienced enough to identify what music is. I know people who say they "like soundtracks" but would mean that generally and would hear King's Row and Star Wars and think they're the same just because they hear a brass section.
What I appreciate about reading about sources of inspiration for Williams is that it's nothing more than discovering the musical vocabulary that has built up Williams' own understanding of music. It's like reading a poem and finding specific words that stand out and you track them down in a dictionary and read their definition. The poet might have used some special words that already existed, but how they interpreted them and put them into their own work makes it very much their own.
Same with filmmakers - they watch movies, and specific moments or elements stand out to them and if they themselves are good as filmmakers, they can incorporate some of those into their own works and cultivate their own voices.
Prokofiev's "Scythian Suite" is a treasure-trove of orchestration inspiration for Williams, some of which found its way into JAWS and others of which into EMPIRE STRIKES BACK and even some of his post-JURASSIC PARK action music:
The beginning at 5:38 sounds a bit like JAWS, but then goes on to sound more like CONAN THE BARBARIAN and even aspects of KRULL. 6:32 has strings that sound like where Williams evolved his action music to after JURASSIC PARK, and 6:56 sounds like some deleted music from Echo Base scenes in EMPIRE. But again, just little building block ideas. I love exploring these kinds of things and comparing the interpretation to learn from it.
And if one of you smart fellas could explain to me why "Battle In The Snow" works so well, please do? I've been trying to crack that cue for years - its almost like a concerto piece and maybe even a little jazzy? - but something about it eludes me unlike the rest of the Star Wars music.
In the past 10 years did you ever get this answered?
I'm not sure how best to answer it but the simplest answer is that it tells a continuously evolving story from beginning to end, with the orchestra playing all the larger contours of the battle. Instruments and timbres are assigned to the two warring factions very consistently, as are rhythmic patterns. The song works as a continuous piece and never lets up its pace, and the rhythm is set by distinctive elements that push and pull against each other. The rebels are usually marked by swelling 16th notes skittering about in nervous tremolos or tumbling around in swirling arpeggios. This contrasts with the Empire's lumbering stabs of percussion and bass for the AT-AT walkers.
Pedal point is frequently used throughout the piece, often to portray the unstoppable singlemindedness of the Empire's advance or simply the forces of aggression that keep the Rebels constantly moving and on the run. Meanwhile octave displacements and triplets are frequently used for the string and woodwind rhythms that keep the piece moving.
The entire song really can best be thought of as a series of different rhythmic patterns that evolve with each other, on top of which are placed various motifs and melodies for the characters and specific story points.
He is miles ahead of everyone else in the buisness still living right now. He is a classical composer and most of his scores ,- if not been written in the last century-, are pure symphonies in the same rank as Stravinsky..etc.Like every composer he is influenced ..and like every great composer he stands for his own.
He is miles ahead of everyone else in the buisness still living right now. He is a classical composer and most of his scores ,- if not been written in the last century-, are pure symphonies in the same rank as Stravinsky..etc.Like every composer he is influenced ..and like every great composer he stands for his own.
Agreed! There’s a big difference on the way Williams uses classical works as inspiration for mood and sound (except for the specific intended quotes as the op mentioned) and some other composers incorporating full sections of classical works in their scores. Like Horner did so many times.
In any case the use of classical music in scores never bothered me (I love Horner scores) as much as temp tracking of other scores (that makes some Debney and LoDuca’s scores almost unlistenable for me - even if I do love some of their more original scores). For example I love the Jaws 3-d score even if it has several sections that reproduce The Rite of Spring (I even made a Rite of Spring “Jaws 3” playlist in my iPod with the tracks that are quoted in the score, in film order) but I can not listen to Army of Darkness or Clifhanger anymore without being distracted by the constant temp tracking.