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 Posted:   Sep 7, 2021 - 9:30 AM   
 By:   King Solium   (Member)

The terminology in Trek II is weird. "Hyperchannel" instead of "subspace." They repeatedly say "spacedock" when the footage is clearly drydock. "Mr. Scott on discrete" is also peculiar.

And stopping the "energizers." What are energizers? Clearly James Doohan isn't tech savvy...his line "I have to take the mains off the line" was probably scripted as "I have to take the mains offline."

The January 18, 1982 draft (still titled "The Undiscovered Country") has the line as: "Admiral, I've got to take the mains off the line. The energizer's shaken loose and I can't get in there to fix her -- radiation --".

That page is dated 10/26/81. The same line is in the 9/16/81 draft (but "loose" is spelled "losse").


Did the script really read like this?
Kirk (shouting):"KHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAN!!!!!!!"

 
 Posted:   Sep 7, 2021 - 10:05 AM   
 By:   NSBulk   (Member)

Did the script really read like this?
Kirk (shouting):"KHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAN!!!!!!!"


No.

 
 Posted:   Sep 7, 2021 - 10:23 AM   
 By:   Khan   (Member)

The terminology in Trek II is weird. "Hyperchannel" instead of "subspace." They repeatedly say "spacedock" when the footage is clearly drydock. "Mr. Scott on discrete" is also peculiar.

Given the definition of discrete, I never found "Mr. Scott on discrete" to be peculiar.

 
 Posted:   Sep 7, 2021 - 10:26 AM   
 By:   Justin Boggan   (Member)

The original "Star Trek" had changes in words to, when they clearly hadn't settled on what they wanted yet.

 
 Posted:   Sep 7, 2021 - 10:33 AM   
 By:   OneBuckFilms   (Member)

Not to fan the flames of "Horner rips off Goldsmith", but when I was listening to the end titles of TWOK the other day I was struck by how Horner follows the same -- I don't know the right words: Rhythm? Structure? Instrumentation? of the end titles of The Motion Picture with a totally different melody.

After Ilia's theme / Spock's theme there is a rousing build up to the Main Theme played in a very punchy staccato with snare drum for the first phrase followed by a more relaxed melodic statement of the second phrase without the drum. (The only words I know I have right are "staccato" and "snare drum".) It then repeats until the track returns to a less frantic statement of the main theme.

Both of them are some of my favorite parts of both scores.

It's interesting because of all of Horner's "Goldsmithisms" this is done with a melody that doesn't sound anything like Goldsmith and is one of the definitive Horner tunes.


Is this structure specific to Goldsmith around that time?

I wonder if other composers used this structure around that time?

Not sure offhand.

For more concrete links, I would say Star Trek II can find many of its roots in Battle Beyond The Stars, and that score has fairly strongly linked to Star Trek TMP.

- The prominent use of the Blaster Beam.
- Malmoori Rear Guard is heavily influenced by Star Trek TMP opening Klingon music.
- The use of the Echoplex harkens to Goldsmith's use of it in Patton.
- The cue in BBTS for the approach to the Haephestus Station owes a lot to The Cloud in Star Trek TMP.

I'm sure there are other links to be found, and I do know that Battle Beyond the Stars was one of the reasons Horner got Star Trek II.

 
 Posted:   Sep 7, 2021 - 11:44 AM   
 By:   other tallguy   (Member)

Not to fan the flames of "Horner rips off Goldsmith", but when I was listening to the end titles of TWOK the other day I was struck by how Horner follows the same -- I don't know the right words: Rhythm? Structure? Instrumentation? of the end titles of The Motion Picture with a totally different melody.

After Ilia's theme / Spock's theme there is a rousing build up to the Main Theme played in a very punchy staccato with snare drum for the first phrase followed by a more relaxed melodic statement of the second phrase without the drum. (The only words I know I have right are "staccato" and "snare drum".) It then repeats until the track returns to a less frantic statement of the main theme.

Both of them are some of my favorite parts of both scores.

It's interesting because of all of Horner's "Goldsmithisms" this is done with a melody that doesn't sound anything like Goldsmith and is one of the definitive Horner tunes.


Is this structure specific to Goldsmith around that time?

I wonder if other composers used this structure around that time?

Not sure offhand.

For more concrete links, I would say Star Trek II can find many of its roots in Battle Beyond The Stars, and that score has fairly strongly linked to Star Trek TMP.

- The prominent use of the Blaster Beam.
- Malmoori Rear Guard is heavily influenced by Star Trek TMP opening Klingon music.
- The use of the Echoplex harkens to Goldsmith's use of it in Patton.
- The cue in BBTS for the approach to the Haephestus Station owes a lot to The Cloud in Star Trek TMP.

I'm sure there are other links to be found, and I do know that Battle Beyond the Stars was one of the reasons Horner got Star Trek II.


To be clear, I was talking specifically of the arrangement of the Main Theme AFTER the interlude (Spock's theme).

Obviously the structure of Main Theme / Interlude (often a love theme or with longer credits a medley of themes from the film) / Main Theme was VERY common. Star Wars, Raiders of the Lost Ark, Star Trek: The Motion Picture to name a few.

As for Battle Beyond the Stars, in that case there are more than a couple of specific lifts from TMP. You probably know them better than I.

 
 Posted:   Sep 7, 2021 - 1:53 PM   
 By:   SchiffyM   (Member)

"Right standard rudder" was laughable.

I just figured that was one of those terms that continued use even when its literal meaning was gone, in the way we'll say "hang up the phone" or "roll down the car window."

What was refreshing to me about Meyer's approach was that it felt used and human. One of my favorite moments occurs during the Genesis countdown sequence, where instead of somebody telling us the odds of escaping the blast radius at at half-impulse, Sulu simply says "We're not going to make it, are we?" and Kirk turns to David, who just shakes his head. So I really don't care what they called that shuttlecraft or what energizers are.

A few years ago, I rewatched the "Next Generation" pilot, and was amused when Captain Picard, trying to maintain an element of surprise against Q, orders all decks notified of their plans by "printout only." Sometimes, the far future seems awfully antiquated.

 
 Posted:   Sep 7, 2021 - 2:13 PM   
 By:   other tallguy   (Member)

"Right standard rudder" was laughable.

I just figured that was one of those terms that continued use even when its literal meaning was gone, in the way we'll say "hang up the phone" or "roll down the car window."

What was refreshing to me about Meyer's approach was that it felt used and human. One of my favorite moments occurs during the Genesis countdown sequence, where instead of somebody telling us the odds of escaping the blast radius at at half-impulse, Sulu simply says "We're not going to make it, are we?" and Kirk turns to David, who just shakes his head. So I really don't care what they called that shuttlecraft or what energizers are.

A few years ago, I rewatched the "Next Generation" pilot, and was amused when Captain Picard, trying to maintain an element of surprise against Q, orders all decks notified of their plans by "printout only." Sometimes, the far future seems awfully antiquated.


I had a friend who objected to the electronic bosun's whistle gadget. He asked "Why it is it a do-dad?" I said "Because it's a naval tradition." He replied "Then it should damn well be a real whistle!"

He had a point. (I believe in TOS it was always just a part of the intercom system.)

SchiffyM that is just about my favorite moment of the whole movie. I love the gist of the scene, as you pointed out, I love the score, and I love the camera work. It's probably hopelessly trite and heavy handed but I adore it.

Hey! I talked about the SCORE!

 
 Posted:   Sep 7, 2021 - 3:53 PM   
 By:   Sean Nethery   (Member)

I had a friend who objected to the electronic bosun's whistle gadget. He asked "Why it is it a do-dad?" I said "Because it's a naval tradition." He replied "Then it should damn well be a real whistle!"

I always thought it was a Space Whistle. If not a Laser Whistle!

 
 Posted:   Sep 7, 2021 - 4:19 PM   
 By:   Adm Naismith   (Member)

I had a friend who objected to the electronic bosun's whistle gadget. He asked "Why it is it a do-dad?" I said "Because it's a naval tradition." He replied "Then it should damn well be a real whistle!"

I always thought it was a Space Whistle. If not a Laser Whistle!



Due to a lack of buglers being in all the needed places in the current armed forces, Taps will sometimes be played by a service member holding a bugle with a speaker/player in the bell that plays a recording of Taps. Perhaps it's like that...

 
 Posted:   Sep 7, 2021 - 4:51 PM   
 By:   Adm Naismith   (Member)

I'll probably get heat for saying this, but one of the reasons I think the SW prequels and sequels did not work as well musically was because they were just way too over-scored for their own good. Too much music and so many scenes had music that did not need that much, if any at all.

Goodness, I can recall sitting through this tedious, talky scene in SW:TPM of everyone first meeting Amidala and there's Johnny underneath crossing every T and dotting ever I, and asked myself "why?". This is boring as f*ck and you're making it worse by highlighting how excruciating it all is.



It may not have been Williams- the music for the three prequels was cut and shifted within each movie and across the sequels by Lucas and his editing team. The prequels may be worthy of an 'as the composer intended it' release (assuming that doesn't mean disks full of concert arrangements...)

 
 Posted:   Sep 7, 2021 - 7:01 PM   
 By:   ZapBrannigan   (Member)

Regarding Star Trek II: I was always aware of the FSM edition's sonic limitations, but it was okay with me except for one thing: Nimoy's narration had a harsh, piercing quality that grated on my ears. And I want the narration.

Now I've replaced FSM with LLL on my iPod, including the album version of "Epilogue," and it sounds far better. I'm very happy with it.

 
 Posted:   Sep 7, 2021 - 9:05 PM   
 By:   other tallguy   (Member)

Regarding Star Trek II: I was always aware of the FSM edition's sonic limitations, but it was okay with me except for one thing: Nimoy's narration had a harsh, piercing quality that grated on my ears. And I want the narration.

Now I've replaced FSM with LLL on my iPod, including the album version of "Epilogue," and it sounds far better. I'm very happy with it.


"Happy birthday!"

 
 Posted:   Sep 7, 2021 - 9:21 PM   
 By:   King Solium   (Member)

Isn't there a Trek Bible? These inconsistencies are inexcusable. Though I seem to recall Myer was no Star Trek fan and had to watch a bunch of episodes to understand the material he was working on.

 
 Posted:   Sep 8, 2021 - 8:04 AM   
 By:   OneBuckFilms   (Member)

Regarding Star Trek II: I was always aware of the FSM edition's sonic limitations, but it was okay with me except for one thing: Nimoy's narration had a harsh, piercing quality that grated on my ears. And I want the narration.

Now I've replaced FSM with LLL on my iPod, including the album version of "Epilogue," and it sounds far better. I'm very happy with it.


"Happy birthday!"


Surely... the best of times.

 
 Posted:   Sep 8, 2021 - 8:35 AM   
 By:   Scott McOldsmith   (Member)

Isn't there a Trek Bible? These inconsistencies are inexcusable. Though I seem to recall Myer was no Star Trek fan and had to watch a bunch of episodes to understand the material he was working on.

For the original series, sure, but nobody involved with the actual writing and production of the film were involved with the TV show. The fact it turned out as well as it did was miraculous. Harve Bennett was under no obligation to watch every episode, but he did. He got more familiar with the series than Fred Freiberger did in 1968. Little technology differences are no big deal especially when in the intervening "15 years" tech can change.

 
 
 Posted:   Sep 8, 2021 - 8:40 AM   
 By:   Ado   (Member)

Isn't there a Trek Bible? These inconsistencies are inexcusable. Though I seem to recall Myer was no Star Trek fan and had to watch a bunch of episodes to understand the material he was working on.

For the original series, sure, but nobody involved with the actual writing and production of the film were involved with the TV show. The fact it turned out as well as it did was miraculous. Harve Bennett was under no obligation to watch every episode, but he did. He got more familiar with the series than Fred Freiberger did in 1968. Little technology differences are no big deal especially when in the intervening "15 years" tech can change.


Nick gets a lot of credit, and, for all his literary eccentricities he was an oddly good thing for Trek, but Harve deserved a lot of credit for steering the production and getting it focused. And he always seemed like a decent guy you would like to have for your neighbor.

 
 Posted:   Sep 8, 2021 - 8:54 AM   
 By:   other tallguy   (Member)

Isn't there a Trek Bible? These inconsistencies are inexcusable. Though I seem to recall Myer was no Star Trek fan and had to watch a bunch of episodes to understand the material he was working on.

For the original series, sure, but nobody involved with the actual writing and production of the film were involved with the TV show. The fact it turned out as well as it did was miraculous. Harve Bennett was under no obligation to watch every episode, but he did. He got more familiar with the series than Fred Freiberger did in 1968. Little technology differences are no big deal especially when in the intervening "15 years" tech can change.


Nick gets a lot of credit, and, for all his literary eccentricities he was an oddly good thing for Trek, but Harve deserved a lot of credit for steering the production and getting it focused. And he always seemed like a decent guy you would like to have for your neighbor.


This might be revisionist, but it seems to be coming to light that producer Robert Salin deserves a lot more credit for Khan than he ever took. Including IIRC choosing Horner. (This is probably in the liner notes that I haven't read through yet. They're great but they're dense.) (I talked about the CD! DING!)

 
 
 Posted:   Sep 8, 2021 - 10:19 AM   
 By:   Ado   (Member)

Isn't there a Trek Bible? These inconsistencies are inexcusable. Though I seem to recall Myer was no Star Trek fan and had to watch a bunch of episodes to understand the material he was working on.

For the original series, sure, but nobody involved with the actual writing and production of the film were involved with the TV show. The fact it turned out as well as it did was miraculous. Harve Bennett was under no obligation to watch every episode, but he did. He got more familiar with the series than Fred Freiberger did in 1968. Little technology differences are no big deal especially when in the intervening "15 years" tech can change.


Nick gets a lot of credit, and, for all his literary eccentricities he was an oddly good thing for Trek, but Harve deserved a lot of credit for steering the production and getting it focused. And he always seemed like a decent guy you would like to have for your neighbor.


This might be revisionist, but it seems to be coming to light that producer Robert Salin deserves a lot more credit for Khan than he ever took. Including IIRC choosing Horner. (This is probably in the liner notes that I haven't read through yet. They're great but they're dense.) (I talked about the CD! DING!)


I think that is true as well, these were quiet producer types, those were the days, and what great music - ding

 
 Posted:   Sep 9, 2021 - 12:51 PM   
 By:   The Mutant   (Member)

Just received mine and noticed a sonic improvement immediately from the first few notes.

 
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