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 Posted:   Sep 20, 2024 - 9:03 AM   
 By:   WhoDat   (Member)

"...and that doesn't include Howard Shore's title theme, which while solid, isn't utilized in McCreary's underscore"
-----------------------
Indeed.
And that's something that makes me ponder some.
I'm in no way knocking the quality of the many and varied themes that Bear McC has created for this series, but I wonder why Shore's Title theme hasn't been hinted at or quoted/interpolated in any way.
Unless BMc has plans for it, further down the line?


My guess would be that Shore was contracted specifically to do the Main Title theme only, and his agreement may have stipulated that the theme not be interpreted by another composer. If not that, perhaps his fee to contribute the theme was high (likely, given his value to the LOTR franchise) and Amazon and/or the show producers don't want to have to pay Shore a royalty fee every time McCreary would quote a snippet of the Main Theme.

 
 Posted:   Sep 20, 2024 - 9:26 AM   
 By:   SchiffyM   (Member)

I believe it's been confirmed that Shore contributed his theme after McCreary had scored most of season one.

 
 Posted:   Sep 20, 2024 - 11:47 AM   
 By:   WhoDat   (Member)

I believe it's been confirmed that Shore contributed his theme after McCreary had scored most of season one.

I wonder what McCreary thinks about having crafted such an intricate tapestry of fantastic themes and orchestrations for the show itself, but not given the Main Title to score...? I need to pull out the book again from the 10-CD set when I get home to see if he makes any mention made of Shore's theme. I blew through the book pretty quick when it arrived, but need to go back and digest it more. I'm sure publicly he's diplomatic about it, but to me his music is really the identity of the show, not Shore's.

It's an oddball situation to have a show with so much thoughtful orchestral scoring not use its title theme at all in the show's big dramatic/action moments. That's why I wonder (now that Season 2 is in the can) if there's not some sort of contractual/legal reason for not using it beyond the title sequence.



 
 
 Posted:   Sep 20, 2024 - 2:18 PM   
 By:   Hurdy Gurdy   (Member)

Yeah, we learned that its absence in S1 was down to BMcC having written most of the score before the Title theme was delivered.
But its absence in 2 is more intriguing.
It's a great theme (the Howard Shore) in its own right and would lend itself to some stirring moments within the show.
I doubt it's a money thing, considering what Amazon have ploughed into this show already, nor any kind of ego thing from Bear, who will only have the interests of the series in the forefront.
It would need to be assigned to something in particular, I suppose.

 
 Posted:   Sep 20, 2024 - 2:31 PM   
 By:   acathla   (Member)

While I've seen the episodes, I still have hard time following details etc (adhd brain, lol) so I have no idea really if any of the characters is any of the same from the movies? Or even related/ancestors to the movie characters? Cause I wonder any of the Shore themes from from the movies will ever show up or even be hinted at in this show? Is there any chance? I love Bears work on the show but would love to hear some of the old themes in new versions as well. But of course thats only if anything from this show is connected to the people from the movies.

 
 Posted:   Sep 20, 2024 - 2:43 PM   
 By:   Yavar Moradi   (Member)

Amazon's Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power is separately licensed and separately adapted from Tolkien, compared with Peter Jackson's Tolkien adaptations for New Line/Warner Bros.

So yes, Amazon's Robert Aramayo and WB's Hugo Weaving are both playing the same J.R.R. Tolkien character of Elrond Half-Elven (who at one point founds Rivendell). But their takes on the character are VERY different from each other, both in terms of how they are written and how they are played. They're both playing the same character from Tolkien's books, but Aramayo really isn't playing the same character as Hugo Weaving's Elrond, if that makes sense.

Other characters who appear both in the Peter Jackson adaptations (mostly just in that brief prologue) and in the current Amazon Second Age show are: Galadriel, Isildur, Elendil, High King Gil-Galad, and (probably) Gandalf... the latter isn't 100% confirmed yet, and I guess it's possible the Stranger ends up being one of the two Blue Wizards who ventures into the East (the very Tolkien-knowledgeable Nerd of the Rings on YouTube still believes in this theory).

The Amazon Second Age show also features Tom Bombadil in the second season... a character who appears in Tolkien's Lord of the Rings but who was omitted from the Peter Jackson film adaptation.

As for McCreary using Shore's themes from the WB/New Line films... it's very unlikely (currently they are legally off-limits, because they are owned by a different studio!), and I personally hope it doesn't happen in the future because the characterization of not only Elrond, but Isildur/Galadriel/etc. is frankly so different. I don't want to start hearing the Howard Shore Rivendell theme for Elrond; I want to keep hearing McCreary's theme.

Yavar

 
 
 Posted:   Sep 20, 2024 - 2:56 PM   
 By:   Hurdy Gurdy   (Member)

Agreed.
I wouldn't want to hear Shore's themes from the Jackson films in this either.
But I wouldn't be against the Title theme being used from time to time.

 
 Posted:   Sep 20, 2024 - 3:53 PM   
 By:   Yavar Moradi   (Member)

I guess I wouldn't be opposed either, since it was specifically written for this series by Shore and doesn't connect to his Jackson work. That said, I think I would have preferred McCreary get to do the Main Title sequence and put something of his own there which organically connects with the rest of his musical Middle Earth world.

Come to think of it, I kinda regard "Where the Shadows Lie" as McCreary's overarching theme for the series proper. It rather encapsulates what the show is ultimately all about, doesn't it? (For me it's also his equivalent to Shore's History of the Ring theme, which always sort of felt like the "main theme" of the Jackson movies to me, if any of his 60 themes for that could be considered a main theme.)

Yavar

 
 Posted:   Sep 21, 2024 - 3:14 AM   
 By:   acathla   (Member)

Thanx a lot for the explanation Yavar! I wasnt aware that so many characters appeared both places, lol!
Havent watched the movies in probably ten years or so, guess a rewatch is needed. Will be interesting to pay attention to these characters to see the differences smile

 
 Posted:   Sep 21, 2024 - 6:13 PM   
 By:   SchiffyM   (Member)

I can't imagine there's any contractual/financial reason for the Shore theme to be absent from the scoring. Amazon would never have allowed that in a contract, and given what they're spending on this series, any cost would be insignificant.

My guess is the simplest explanation is the one: McCreary was too far down the road to interpolate the theme in season one (Shore was quite clearly brought on to get some mentions in the press, not because they lacked faith in McCreary's pieces). By the time season two came along, the template was set, and barring any great narrative reason to suddenly bring in the title theme, there didn't seem any reason to change course.

 
 Posted:   Sep 21, 2024 - 6:15 PM   
 By:   Yavar Moradi   (Member)

Yeah, that’s exactly what I think happened. I was only saying that McCreary doesn’t have the rights to (nor should he want to) adapt any of Shore’s themes from the Jackson films.

Yavar

 
 Posted:   Sep 21, 2024 - 6:23 PM   
 By:   SchiffyM   (Member)

Yeah, that’s exactly what I think happened. I was only saying that McCreary doesn’t have the rights to (nor should he want to) adapt any of Shore’s themes from the Jackson films.

Yes! I was referring to a couple of the other posts. I agree with your point (because, you know, facts are easy to agree with).

 
 
 Posted:   Sep 22, 2024 - 1:52 AM   
 By:   Thor   (Member)

So yes, Amazon's Robert Aramayo and WB's Hugo Weaving are both playing the same J.R.R. Tolkien character of Elrond Half-Elven (who at one point founds Rivendell). But their takes on the character are VERY different from each other, both in terms of how they are written and how they are played. They're both playing the same character from Tolkien's books, but Aramayo really isn't playing the same character as Hugo Weaving's Elrond, if that makes sense.

Gee whiz, Yavar, thanks for ruining my enjoyment of the series! wink

About 50% of my enjoyment of this series comes from picturing how the familiar characters will grow into the ones I know from the Jackson films.

I have no interest in a "remake" or new take on the same universe; want it all to tie neatly together, so I would have loved it if McCreary used some of Shore's themes from the films (and obviously the theme of the show itself).

 
 Posted:   Sep 22, 2024 - 6:43 AM   
 By:   acathla   (Member)


I have no interest in a "remake" or new take on the same universe; want it all to tie neatly together, so I would have loved it if McCreary used some of Shore's themes from the films (and obviously the theme of the show itself).


This is how I feel about this show as well! Would love for it to slowly tie into the movies in some form.
I would have loved to hear the movie themes hinted at!

 
 
 Posted:   Sep 23, 2024 - 7:44 AM   
 By:   Hurdy Gurdy   (Member)

I don't quite get why people want to hear Howard Shore's old themes in this new prequel/telling.
Granted they're great and served their characters and stories well.
But I feel they would just muddy the waters and go against the new soundscape that Bear McC is working with here (while admittedly conjuring the vibe and feel of Shore at times anyway).
The biggest distraction for me, with these scores, is hearing bits and pieces of OUTLANDER (and FOUNDATION) wander in and out every now and then.

 
 
 Posted:   Sep 23, 2024 - 9:12 AM   
 By:   basmith   (Member)

I have mixed feelings about the narrative approach to the series, as Season 1 was painfully slow despite 2 or 3 brilliant episodes, and Season 2 is an over-correction - moving so quickly it stretches the limits of plausibility.

McCreary’s score, however, has been a pleasant surprise. I have found all the thematic material to be consonant with that of Howard Shore, just as the look of the Elves, Orcs, Dwarves, etc. have hewn closely to the Peter Jackson vision. Whether or not there is an intent to evolve themes into Shore’s for LOTR, the harmonics of character/world themes are quite complementary between the two works and I could easily imagine deconstructing Shore’s themes to arrive at those in Rings of Power or had the sequence been reversed, the seeds of LOTR themes germinating from McCreary’s themes. I’m quite happy with how the music has turned out in the series so far.

 
 
 Posted:   Sep 23, 2024 - 9:52 AM   
 By:   Thor   (Member)

I don't quite get why people want to hear Howard Shore's old themes in this new prequel/telling.

For characters, places and phenomena that appear both places -- why not?

 
 
 Posted:   Sep 23, 2024 - 10:06 AM   
 By:   Hurdy Gurdy   (Member)

I dunno, just different iterations are better suited with newer garments, in a manner of speaking.

 
 
 Posted:   Sep 23, 2024 - 10:13 AM   
 By:   Thor   (Member)

I like old garments. I wear socks until they're so full of holes, I could just as well walk barefoot.

 
 
 Posted:   Sep 23, 2024 - 10:41 AM   
 By:   Hurdy Gurdy   (Member)

Well, I'm glad Bear is forging his own path, without any distractions from previous themes of a different age/production.
Although, as previously noted, the Shore ROP title theme is welcome to drift in and out if need be.

 
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