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Posted: |
Aug 8, 2018 - 2:29 PM
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By: |
McD
(Member)
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MCD I LOVE YOU!
I have raved about that piece and arrangement since I first saw the film.
It is used brilliantly by the director accompanying a montage of events in the life of the main character.
I looked for the cd for ages before finally nabbing a copy!!!!!
brm
p.s I am sure you notice that Convertino's 'original" score is imitative of the Part pieces and style.
I’m heartened to find there is another soul in this god forsaken world who is aware of Convertino’s stunning work on this piece.
I think i’d even go so far as to say that “Spiegel im Spiegel / War” (Part / Convertino) is my favourite cue in all of film music. Convertino lets the piano / violin piece go untouched for 3 mins 22 secs before coming in, but he’s only teeing up his big entrance at 3:30. Jaw dropping stuff. He’s not only orchestrating a sparse piece, but (is this a first?) he’s doing it as an overlay to a specific recording, not the piece in general. It feels like be brings out flavours in the original playing that just weren’t there before.
Yes, I noticed that Convertino is very much trying to channel Part throughout. In all of his contributions, whether he sounds like he’s already been through the telepod but still looks mostly like Convertino in A New No-Life. Or when he’s gone full Brundlefly on The Hanging Man, the best piece Arvo Part never wrote for a film. (Actually the end from about 2:40 sounds more Goreckian).
It’s the one score I’d love to know more about. It’s shrouded in mystery, like the never interviewed, never seen Convertino himself. Whose idea was it to adapt Spiegel? It would appear that Part was heavily used from early on for Convertino to adapt his style to suit so much. But was he happy about it? Over to you, Keith Gordon. Tell us all about it in your Director’s Commentary. Oh no, Keith has only discussed the music and pretended that Convertino doesn’t even exist. The music in this film is by Arvo Part, he says! Keith, I love you but that was a diss and a half. Against a guy who just gave you one of the greatest scores of the decade.
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Posted: |
Aug 8, 2018 - 2:58 PM
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By: |
Tall Guy
(Member)
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I think I've stated this before on another thread, but I really would've preferred Previn use the fourth movement form Shostakovitch's 5th to end the film instead of repeating "Tocacata and Fugue".
Interesting point. But as much as I approve of any Shostakovich being played anywhere at any time for any reason, I question if that would have worked. The music bookends the film, of course, with the dramatic opening shots of the Rollerball arena gradually being exposed, and the Bach works for that very well. Jonathan has just apparently proved himself bigger than the game and the chanting of the crowd is fierce and exultant, as is the finale of Shostakovich’s fifth, but you know as an observer that Jonathan’s days are numbered one way or another, and I think the darkness of the toccata matches that feeling perfectly.
I recognise the irony that the Shostakovich is also hollow rejoicing - not that many people were aware of that at the time - and just like the Soviet authorities swallowed it hook line and sinker (as “a response to just criticism”) the filmgoing audience would perhaps have left the cinema thinking that Jonathan would be allowed a happy and comfortable retirement whereas I think Jewison and Previn wanted to hint that the victory would be short-lived and repeating the opening music seems to me to work for that. Okay, Jonathan has “won” but ultimately will it make a difference?
All this is just my theory, of course, and if they HAD used the Shostakovich we might have considered it a brilliant finale to the film for the last 45 years or so. You might also disagree with my reading of the end of the film, and it’s all speculation anyway. That said, they could have used Umiliani’s Mana Mana and it would still be a million times better than the execrable remake.
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That said, they could have used Umiliani’s Mah-nah Mah-nah and it would still be a million times better than any Shostakovich being played anywhere at any time for any reason
This statement has been modified from its original form to better suit the perspectives and tastes of the FSM board membership.
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Certainly we can't forget Bach's Toccata and Fugue in D Minor. Countless horror films. But Andre Previn used it to good effect in ROLLERBALL.
It would be interesting if there was a score of his own music that Previn did for Rollerball that was "rejected" for classical.
I tend to doubt it. I believe this was Previn's last Hollywood project, completed after he had become conductor of the LSO. In fact, the LSO performed the soundtrack.
Simple answer.
It was a deliberate attempt to repeat the success of 2001 by using the musical template of Kubrick's film
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Fantasia on a theme by Thomas Tallis
RvW
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Posted: |
Aug 9, 2018 - 5:35 AM
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By: |
jackfu
(Member)
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Interesting point. But as much as I approve of any Shostakovich being played anywhere at any time for any reason, I question if that would have worked. The music bookends the film, of course, with the dramatic opening shots of the Rollerball arena gradually being exposed, and the Bach works for that very well. Jonathan has just apparently proved himself bigger than the game and the chanting of the crowd is fierce and exultant, as is the finale of Shostakovich’s fifth, but you know as an observer that Jonathan’s days are numbered one way or another, and I think the darkness of the toccata matches that feeling perfectly.
I recognise the irony that the Shostakovich is also hollow rejoicing - not that many people were aware of that at the time - and just like the Soviet authorities swallowed it hook line and sinker (as “a response to just criticism”) the filmgoing audience would perhaps have left the cinema thinking that Jonathan would be allowed a happy and comfortable retirement whereas I think Jewison and Previn wanted to hint that the victory would be short-lived and repeating the opening music seems to me to work for that. Okay, Jonathan has “won” but ultimately will it make a difference?
All this is just my theory, of course, and if they HAD used the Shostakovich we might have considered it a brilliant finale to the film for the last 45 years or so. You might also disagree with my reading of the end of the film, and it’s all speculation anyway. That said, they could have used Umiliani’s Mana Mana and it would still be a million times better than the execrable remake.
Excellent points! You’re probably correct about the ending. My preference for Shostakovich’s music for the ending would require a more upbeat ending, with Jonathan circling the rink, hands raised in victory, the crowd crushing to get to the rink, perhaps even trampling Bartholomew. Fade to black as Jonathan and the crowd celebrate. I think I might have liked that. However, this was the 70’s and antiheroes and bittersweet endings seemed the norm.
I like your idea about Jonathan becoming bigger than the game. Really, he’s broken it, hasn’t he? By the end of this match it is obvious to all in attendance and the billions watching on TV, that the whole intent of this match was to kill Jonathan; that’s why the crowd turned in his favor. So, could the corporation kill him subvertly now? They’ve been exposed for all to see. I think the game is over, literally.
I agree that T&F bookends it all. And the (inscrutable, I thought) look on Jonathan’s face as he comes straight at the camera maybe saying “F-Y! Here I come, try and stop me now!” Or, maybe it does express his realization that his fate and the game’s, are sealed so bring it on.
Lastly and not to knock Caan, but while I’ve like his acting in most all of his films I’ve seen, this one included, I would like to have seen Steve McQueen in the role. Other than the age factor and the fact that he was too big a star then, I think he could have pulled it off very well. He already had the cool, antihero tough-guy appeal and he could have added that dry humor of his. Ah, well.
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Posted: |
Aug 9, 2018 - 5:35 AM
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By: |
jackfu
(Member)
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Interesting point. But as much as I approve of any Shostakovich being played anywhere at any time for any reason, I question if that would have worked. The music bookends the film, of course, with the dramatic opening shots of the Rollerball arena gradually being exposed, and the Bach works for that very well. Jonathan has just apparently proved himself bigger than the game and the chanting of the crowd is fierce and exultant, as is the finale of Shostakovich’s fifth, but you know as an observer that Jonathan’s days are numbered one way or another, and I think the darkness of the toccata matches that feeling perfectly.
I recognise the irony that the Shostakovich is also hollow rejoicing - not that many people were aware of that at the time - and just like the Soviet authorities swallowed it hook line and sinker (as “a response to just criticism”) the filmgoing audience would perhaps have left the cinema thinking that Jonathan would be allowed a happy and comfortable retirement whereas I think Jewison and Previn wanted to hint that the victory would be short-lived and repeating the opening music seems to me to work for that. Okay, Jonathan has “won” but ultimately will it make a difference?
All this is just my theory, of course, and if they HAD used the Shostakovich we might have considered it a brilliant finale to the film for the last 45 years or so. You might also disagree with my reading of the end of the film, and it’s all speculation anyway. That said, they could have used Umiliani’s Mana Mana and it would still be a million times better than the execrable remake.
Excellent points! You’re probably correct about the ending. My preference for Shostakovich’s music for the ending would require a more upbeat ending, with Jonathan circling the rink, hands raised in victory, the crowd crushing to get to the rink, perhaps even trampling Bartholomew. Fade to black as Jonathan and the crowd celebrate. I think I might have liked that. However, this was the 70’s and antiheroes and bittersweet or downbeat, "The Man always wins in the end" endings seemed the norm.
I like your idea about Jonathan becoming bigger than the game. Really, he’s broken it, hasn’t he? By the end of this match it is obvious to all in attendance and the billions watching on TV, that the whole intent of this match was to kill Jonathan; that’s why the crowd turned in his favor. So, could the corporation kill him subvertly now? They’ve been exposed for all to see. I think the game is over, literally.
I agree that T&F bookends it all. And the (inscrutable, I thought) look on Jonathan’s face as he comes straight at the camera may be saying “F-You! Here I come, try and stop me now!” Or, maybe it does express his realization that his fate and the game’s, are sealed so bring it on.
Lastly and not to knock Caan, but while I’ve liked his acting in most all of his films I’ve seen, this one included, I would like to have seen Steve McQueen in the role. Other than the age factor and the fact that he was too big a star then, I think he could have pulled it off very well. He already had the cool, antihero tough-guy appeal and he could have added that dry humor of his. Ah, well.
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MCD I LOVE YOU!
I have raved about that piece and arrangement since I first saw the film.
It is used brilliantly by the director accompanying a montage of events in the life of the main character.
I looked for the cd for ages before finally nabbing a copy!!!!!
brm
p.s I am sure you notice that Convertino's 'original" score is imitative of the Part pieces and style.
I’m heartened to find there is another soul in this god forsaken world who is aware of Convertino’s stunning work on this piece.
I think i’d even go so far as to say that “Spiegel im Spiegel / War” (Part / Convertino) is my favourite cue in all of film music. ...
I might vote for the first iteration "A NAtion of Two"
In the film the sequence is mesmerizing. The combination of Nolte's voice over, the recitation of the play by his wife, Hitler's oration on the radio. ...the way it is edited... haunting!!!!
I have a feeling the producers ORIGINALLY 'temped' the film with Part - not knowing if they could obtain the rights - and had MC do soundalike cues. This is exactly what happened with the THE RIGHT STUFF!
HILLARY & JACKIE features a sound alike cue to SIS . Maybe they tried and failed to secure the original?
brm
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Posted: |
Aug 9, 2018 - 10:53 PM
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By: |
nerfTractor
(Member)
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MCD I LOVE YOU!
I have raved about that piece and arrangement since I first saw the film.
It is used brilliantly by the director accompanying a montage of events in the life of the main character.
I looked for the cd for ages before finally nabbing a copy!!!!!
brm
p.s I am sure you notice that Convertino's 'original" score is imitative of the Part pieces and style.
I’m heartened to find there is another soul in this god forsaken world who is aware of Convertino’s stunning work on this piece.
I think i’d even go so far as to say that “Spiegel im Spiegel / War” (Part / Convertino) is my favourite cue in all of film music. Convertino lets the piano / violin piece go untouched for 3 mins 22 secs before coming in, but he’s only teeing up his big entrance at 3:30. Jaw dropping stuff. He’s not only orchestrating a sparse piece, but (is this a first?) he’s doing it as an overlay to a specific recording, not the piece in general. It feels like be brings out flavours in the original playing that just weren’t there before.
Yes, I noticed that Convertino is very much trying to channel Part throughout. In all of his contributions, whether he sounds like he’s already been through the telepod but still looks mostly like Convertino in A New No-Life. Or when he’s gone full Brundlefly on The Hanging Man, the best piece Arvo Part never wrote for a film. (Actually the end from about 2:40 sounds more Goreckian).
It’s the one score I’d love to know more about. It’s shrouded in mystery, like the never interviewed, never seen Convertino himself. Whose idea was it to adapt Spiegel? It would appear that Part was heavily used from early on for Convertino to adapt his style to suit so much. But was he happy about it? Over to you, Keith Gordon. Tell us all about it in your Director’s Commentary. Oh no, Keith has only discussed the music and pretended that Convertino doesn’t even exist. The music in this film is by Arvo Part, he says! Keith, I love you but that was a diss and a half. Against a guy who just gave you one of the greatest scores of the decade.
This comment sent me in search of the recording (which is now readily streamable). You are entirely correct that this is a gloss on an existing recording, which to my knowledge hasn’t been done before. (I paused and listened to the original just to know if it really was the original record). The embellishments are lovely. I listened for this transformative moment that you and others talked about where the music was lifted beyond what Pärt had written. I heard a lovely broadening of the harmonic pallet but nothing revolutionary. This is still Pärt’s piece, to my ears, lovely thought the adaptation may be.
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The orchestrating of Satie's "Gymnopedies" also transformed the piece.
I think it was by Ravel.
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Posted: |
Aug 10, 2018 - 5:11 AM
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By: |
Tall Guy
(Member)
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Interesting point. But as much as I approve of any Shostakovich being played anywhere at any time for any reason, I question if that would have worked. The music bookends the film, of course, with the dramatic opening shots of the Rollerball arena gradually being exposed, and the Bach works for that very well. Jonathan has just apparently proved himself bigger than the game and the chanting of the crowd is fierce and exultant, as is the finale of Shostakovich’s fifth, but you know as an observer that Jonathan’s days are numbered one way or another, and I think the darkness of the toccata matches that feeling perfectly.
I recognise the irony that the Shostakovich is also hollow rejoicing - not that many people were aware of that at the time - and just like the Soviet authorities swallowed it hook line and sinker (as “a response to just criticism”) the filmgoing audience would perhaps have left the cinema thinking that Jonathan would be allowed a happy and comfortable retirement whereas I think Jewison and Previn wanted to hint that the victory would be short-lived and repeating the opening music seems to me to work for that. Okay, Jonathan has “won” but ultimately will it make a difference?
All this is just my theory, of course, and if they HAD used the Shostakovich we might have considered it a brilliant finale to the film for the last 45 years or so. You might also disagree with my reading of the end of the film, and it’s all speculation anyway. That said, they could have used Umiliani’s Mana Mana and it would still be a million times better than the execrable remake.
Excellent points! You’re probably correct about the ending. My preference for Shostakovich’s music for the ending would require a more upbeat ending, with Jonathan circling the rink, hands raised in victory, the crowd crushing to get to the rink, perhaps even trampling Bartholomew. Fade to black as Jonathan and the crowd celebrate. I think I might have liked that. However, this was the 70’s and antiheroes and bittersweet or downbeat, "The Man always wins in the end" endings seemed the norm.
I like your idea about Jonathan becoming bigger than the game. Really, he’s broken it, hasn’t he? By the end of this match it is obvious to all in attendance and the billions watching on TV, that the whole intent of this match was to kill Jonathan; that’s why the crowd turned in his favor. So, could the corporation kill him subvertly now? They’ve been exposed for all to see. I think the game is over, literally.
I agree that T&F bookends it all. And the (inscrutable, I thought) look on Jonathan’s face as he comes straight at the camera may be saying “F-You! Here I come, try and stop me now!” Or, maybe it does express his realization that his fate and the game’s, are sealed so bring it on.
Lastly and not to knock Caan, but while I’ve liked his acting in most all of his films I’ve seen, this one included, I would like to have seen Steve McQueen in the role. Other than the age factor and the fact that he was too big a star then, I think he could have pulled it off very well. He already had the cool, antihero tough-guy appeal and he could have added that dry humor of his. Ah, well.
If nothing else, this thread has made me decide to pick this up on bluray and re-watch it for the first time in quite a few years. You make a great point about the look on this face in the end freeze frame. Clearly that split second was chosen for a reason, and his expression is really hard to read. A mixture of disgust, contempt and vindication?
McQueen at (or just after) his prime would have worked very well in this film. I saw Paul Newman in Slapshot and he, as a young man, could have pulled it off as well. But ultimately I love Caan in this. I wouldn't have seen The Godfather by the time of Rollerball, but that violent impetuousness that Sonny made his own translates well to the world's most violent sport, although Jonathan is of course more measured and calculating than Sonny ever was.
And to repeat for the umpteenth time, it was Rollerball and Rollerball alone that got me into Shostakovich, and for that the film will forever live in blessed memory!
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Posted: |
Aug 10, 2018 - 6:10 AM
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By: |
Tall Guy
(Member)
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The three Shostakovich excerpts on the 1975 Rollerball LP/CD are:
The opening of the first movement of the 8th symphony
The 8th is part of DDS's war symphony cycle and opens with a powerful and dark melody, leading into a slow string-based section which is the closest thing he wrote (in my opinion) to the astonishingly beautiful music in the next excerpt. This is a great reading of it.
The opening of the third movement of the 5th symphony
Music that could have got Shostakovich killed. After his (hitherto very successful) Lady Macbeth opera was publicly panned by Stalin, Shostakovich withdrew his massive and challenging 4th symphony at rehearsal stage and kept his head down until he'd written the 5th, on the face of it his attempt at redemption. However, few in the audience were fooled that the third movement was anything less than a stunning condemnation of the Soviet attitude towards their own people and a heart-breaking assertion of the human spirit. The phrase "there was barely a dry eye in the house" has rarely been so literally true. Fortunately, the authorities heard the apparently triumphant finale (see below), labelled the symphony "an optimistic tragedy" and largely allowed a rehabilitation of the "enemy of the people Shostakovich". Used note-for-note in Horner's Clear and Present Danger.
The last section of the finale of the 5th symphony
Also used to good, if uncredited, effect by Bill Conti in (Escape to) Victory, in hindsight the use of the piercing and drawn out A note that pervades much of this section should indicate that the rejoicing otherwise inherent in this passage is hollow and mendacious - making a mockery of its use in the 1981 Michael Caine and Pele POW film, unless the hint is that just after the events at the end of the film, all the escapees are rounded up and shot.
The fifth symphony in particular should be well-known amongst film score fans, turning up as it does in so many films in thin disguise. To the point, in fact, that I'd say any serious film music collection is lacking without a reading of it. I suppose it makes it a classical warhorse - but one that isn't ever going to go away!
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