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 Posted:   Jul 16, 2022 - 8:17 AM   
 By:   Solium   (Member)

I can't pretend to understand the thought process of expressing upset that a make believe character of fantastical imagination has a darker skin pigment but I do hope this series is worth a watch. I'm setting low expectations, because that is what you do with something like this, but if it works then it works!

If you made up your own fantasy world say like "Willow" then yes, you're not constrained by race or ethnicity. But if you are basing your work on TLOTR's which is based on a specific region of the world, though the actual locations are fantasy, then you are. You wouldn't put African Americans in a historical Japanese movie or Chinese in a historical British movie. For example you're not going to populate the Knights of the Round Table with African Americans and Chinese.

 
 
 Posted:   Jul 16, 2022 - 9:25 AM   
 By:   Willgoldnewtonbarrygrusin   (Member)

What’s fun is no one actually uses the term “woke” anymore other than conservatives who use it as a general insult for well, you can see if you scroll up.

Not true. Consumers across all spectrum's want to enjoy films without political ideology, diversity mandates or social messaging being shoved down their throats. Go woke, go broke.


Everything is political, ideological and has a message.

You think that TLOTR was about nothing? Tolkien would disagree.

Also, to think that skin color always has to be white because that was how it has always been portrayed is as ignorant of the truth as insisting that Jesus was white.

 
 Posted:   Jul 16, 2022 - 9:28 AM   
 By:   SchiffyM   (Member)

That anybody could with a straight face compare the authenticity of a depiction of actual historical events to the authenticity of a world with talking trees and a floating flaming evil eye seems the epitome of intellectual bankruptcy.

 
 Posted:   Jul 16, 2022 - 9:33 AM   
 By:   SchiffyM   (Member)

What’s fun is no one actually uses the term “woke” anymore other than conservatives who use it as a general insult for well, you can see if you scroll up.

Not true. Consumers across all spectrum's want to enjoy films without political ideology, diversity mandates or social messaging being shoved down their throats. Go woke, go broke.


If you read his post, I think you'll see you've proved his point.

 
 Posted:   Jul 16, 2022 - 9:35 AM   
 By:   Solium   (Member)

That anybody could with a straight face compare the authenticity of a depiction of actual historical events to the authenticity of a world with talking trees and a floating flaming evil eye seems the epitome of intellectual bankruptcy.

So you're saying J. R. R. Tolkien and Peter Jackson are intellectually bankrupt. Got it.

 
 Posted:   Jul 16, 2022 - 9:36 AM   
 By:   Solium   (Member)

What’s fun is no one actually uses the term “woke” anymore other than conservatives who use it as a general insult for well, you can see if you scroll up.

Not true. Consumers across all spectrum's want to enjoy films without political ideology, diversity mandates or social messaging being shoved down their throats. Go woke, go broke.


Everything is political, ideological and has a message.

You think that TLOTR was about nothing? Tolkien would disagree.

Also, to think that skin color always has to be white because that was how it has always been portrayed is as ignorant of the truth as insisting that Jesus was white.


I didn't say TLOTR's was about nothing. I said nothing of the sorts.

 
 Posted:   Jul 16, 2022 - 9:39 AM   
 By:   SchiffyM   (Member)

Everything is political, ideological and has a message.

Sadly, to some, acknowledging that (for instance) gay people exist is "shoving social messaging down their throats." (Please note: This is not a specific accusation against the person I'm quoting, whose opinion on that subject I have no insight into.)

The new conservative catchphrase "Go woke, go broke" is a really solid rhyme, but it is not supported by data. They all laugh smugly at the financial disappointment of Lightyear with its brief moment of lesbian affection while ignoring the success of Thor: Love and Thunder, which has a bit more LGBTQ+ content (albeit both have almost none).

 
 Posted:   Jul 16, 2022 - 9:39 AM   
 By:   SchiffyM   (Member)

That anybody could with a straight face compare the authenticity of a depiction of actual historical events to the authenticity of a world with talking trees and a floating flaming evil eye seems the epitome of intellectual bankruptcy.

So you're saying J. R. R. Tolkien and Peter Jackson are intellectually bankrupt. Got it.


When did they make the same comparison you did?

 
 Posted:   Jul 16, 2022 - 10:05 AM   
 By:   SchiffyM   (Member)

Look, I have a hunch we're facing either a stern talking-to or a locked thread here. All I would say is, I think it's a real shame that there are some who react to casting that reflects the world we live in as "diversity mandates." (And by the way, yes, I do agree that there are films with actual historical contexts where that can be ridiculous. But that is certainly not what we're talking about here, though some are pretending there's a comparison.)

For too long, most films took place in a fantasy world, no matter the context, where only white people existed, at least in any meaningful way. I'm happy that that is changing, and sad that some object that that's "forced" and something that "people don't want." What harm is a Black dwarf (or whatever they are) causing anybody that they have to rail against it on the internet? I don't think I'll ever understand.

And if anybody chooses to answer this, I would ask that you answer with "what I want" rather than distancing with the generic "what people want."

 
 Posted:   Jul 16, 2022 - 10:10 AM   
 By:   Solium   (Member)

That anybody could with a straight face compare the authenticity of a depiction of actual historical events to the authenticity of a world with talking trees and a floating flaming evil eye seems the epitome of intellectual bankruptcy.

So you're saying J. R. R. Tolkien and Peter Jackson are intellectually bankrupt. Got it.

When did they make the same comparison you did?


Isn't Tolkien's elf's based on European folklore? I said you wouldn't make the Knights of the Round Table African Americans or Chinese because it wouldn't fit the region of the world the mythology is based on.
But go on with your insults since your righteousness rules supreme.

 
 Posted:   Jul 16, 2022 - 10:11 AM   
 By:   Solium   (Member)

Everything is political, ideological and has a message.

Sadly, to some, acknowledging that (for instance) gay people exist is "shoving social messaging down their throats." (Please note: This is not a specific accusation against the person I'm quoting, whose opinion on that subject I have no insight into.)

The new conservative catchphrase "Go woke, go broke" is a really solid rhyme, but it is not supported by data. They all laugh smugly at the financial disappointment of Lightyear with its brief moment of lesbian affection while ignoring the success of Thor: Love and Thunder, which has a bit more LGBTQ+ content (albeit both have almost none).



Gay people exist? Wow! Thank god I have Hollywood and YOU to educate me on such things! I thought they were a myth hiding in closets.

 
 
 Posted:   Jul 16, 2022 - 12:23 PM   
 By:   Grack21   (Member)

What’s fun is no one actually uses the term “woke” anymore other than conservatives who use it as a general insult for well, you can see if you scroll up.

Not true. Consumers across all spectrum's want to enjoy films without political ideology, diversity mandates or social messaging being shoved down their throats. Go woke, go broke.


If you read his post, I think you'll see you've proved his point.


I’ll guess and say that’s the one guy i have blocked, and yes, he did just prove my point to a hilarious degree that I’d almost suspect Poe’s law if I didn’t know better.

 
 
 Posted:   Jul 16, 2022 - 12:26 PM   
 By:   Grack21   (Member)

Everything is political, ideological and has a message.

Sadly, to some, acknowledging that (for instance) gay people exist is "shoving social messaging down their throats." (Please note: This is not a specific accusation against the person I'm quoting, whose opinion on that subject I have no insight into.)

The new conservative catchphrase "Go woke, go broke" is a really solid rhyme, but it is not supported by data. They all laugh smugly at the financial disappointment of Lightyear with its brief moment of lesbian affection while ignoring the success of Thor: Love and Thunder, which has a bit more LGBTQ+ content (albeit both have almost none).


Yeah they only trot that one out when a film fails. And, I remembered why I blocked him
now so I’ll withdraw. You’re in charge mr panda.

 
 
 Posted:   Jul 16, 2022 - 2:45 PM   
 By:   joan hue   (Member)

For too long, most films took place in a fantasy world, no matter the context, where only white people existed, at least in any meaningful way. I'm happy that that is changing, and sad that some object that that's "forced" and something that "people don't want." What harm is a Black dwarf (or whatever they are) causing anybody that they have to rail against it on the internet? I don't think I'll ever understand.

I really agree with you, Shiffy. Note also that most of those fantasy films were cast, produced and directed by white people. Our population is now much more diverse. How nice it is that children of color can see themselves as elves, dwarves, or other Tolkien characters. I too don't understand why anyone would be upset about a Black dwarf.

 
 Posted:   Jul 16, 2022 - 6:17 PM   
 By:   nuts_score   (Member)


Isn't Tolkien's elf's based on European folklore? I said you wouldn't make the Knights of the Round Table African Americans or Chinese because it wouldn't fit the region of the world the mythology is based on.


As a long-time fan of Mike Barr's and Brian Bolland's DC Comics masterpiece Camelot 3000, I have no qualms with changing race/sexual identity of the Round Table mythos. It is make believe.

 
 
 Posted:   Jul 16, 2022 - 7:26 PM   
 By:   Grack21   (Member)

Believe it or not, their were and are black people in Europe.

 
 Posted:   Jul 16, 2022 - 8:33 PM   
 By:   Solium   (Member)

@ Grack21 - You seem obsessed with me. Not only do you respond to every one of my posts you keep reminding everyone I'm the only one you have blocked. Which leads me to my question, am I blocked or not?

 
 
 Posted:   Jul 16, 2022 - 8:45 PM   
 By:   Grack21   (Member)

For too long, most films took place in a fantasy world, no matter the context, where only white people existed, at least in any meaningful way. I'm happy that that is changing, and sad that some object that that's "forced" and something that "people don't want." What harm is a Black dwarf (or whatever they are) causing anybody that they have to rail against it on the internet? I don't think I'll ever understand.

I really agree with you, Shiffy. Note also that most of those fantasy films were cast, produced and directed by white people. Our population is now much more diverse. How nice it is that children of color can see themselves as elves, dwarves, or other Tolkien characters. I too don't understand why anyone would be upset about a Black dwarf.


As an extra hilarious note, anyone who knows even a little bit about Tolkien the man knows he would be the last one to complain about someone adding a black dwarf to an adaptation. Honestly this whole thread is…icky.

 
 Posted:   Jul 16, 2022 - 8:46 PM   
 By:   Solium   (Member)


Because of wokeness huh? Not because there are 500 sequels, bad scripts, uninspired acting, bad direction, endless repeat of the same plotlines, etc. If they hire white actors, those issue would be solved huh?


THIS.

I figured out a long time ago that anyone complaining about "wokeness" is just a racist...plain and simple.


Well you haven't figured anything out then. Wokeness is the direct cause of bad stories and scripts. Because its not about story and characters its about virtue signalling.

 
 
 Posted:   Jul 16, 2022 - 10:11 PM   
 By:   Jurassic T. Park   (Member)

The only real point of argument I could understand is whether changes to the Lord of the Rings universe match the level of logic in what Tolkien laid out. He was pretty specific and detailed in his world-building, so if there is a historical logic to why a dwarf might be darker-skinned or there is a female orc leader in a homo-social patriarchal clan, etc. then I don't really see an issue.

On a broader level, I think there is a reasonable frustration with the predictable friction created by media taking existing works and trying to turn them into their own playground instead of making a new one themselves. LORD OF THE RINGS was a specific story in a universe made to serve that story. There is definitely a point where that can get tweaked so much that it basically becomes a generic Dungeons & Dragons universe that's merely leeching off the name brand of LOTR and nothing more. I am very opposed to the excessive expansion and re-writing of franchises to fit needs incompatible with the originals (JURASSIC WORLD series is a current example) and my stance is that some audiences and some production folk (not a lot, but there have been a few I've worked with) are a bit selfish in wanting to change a creative world they didn't make, just to suit their own personal wants.

As for this show, we have yet to see. I'm curious how it will all turn out.

 
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