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 Posted:   Dec 17, 2019 - 9:12 PM   
 By:   'Lenny Bruce' Marshall   (Member)

By the time these films come out will there still be interest in AVATAR?
I loved it when I saw it IMAX 3D, but the second time I watched, on DVD, I thought it was pretty lame storywise.

 
 
 Posted:   Dec 17, 2019 - 11:38 PM   
 By:   Stalker Vigil   (Member)

So, this is an unexpected, but nonetheless logical choice. It's obvious, that Cameron needs James Horner's sound in sequels and who if not the composer who worked with Horner on many projects can provide this? Of course there is many other talented composers who can recreate or imitate Horner's sound in Avatar, but what if there is a need in man who knows Horner and his ways of work? I think Simon Franglen is the one who knows it. You may correct me if I'm wrong.

I'm not so glad with this choise, If you ask me, but I'm not angry about it. Taken in mind, that how big responisibilities Franglen had during the work on The Magnificent Seven and Pandora - The World of Avatar, I can understand that it could be too much for him to move from Horner's arranger to co-composer and now the main composer of the Avatar. It's hard enough, but I believe it's not impossible to handle with.

But I trust Cameron's choise, no matter what. It's not Alita or new Terminator, it's his personal movie and I hope he'll focus on music and not only on script or technlogies. As I sad before he needs someone who worked with Horner and Franglen is the right man for that. Of course it dosen't mean that he is the only one who can handle with Horner's musical legasy (J.A.C Redford and Don Davis for example), but the one Cameron want's to work with.

So, I think we need to give this man a chanse. The right direction, musical base and inspiration may give us the greate music for this sci-fi movies.

 
 
 Posted:   Dec 17, 2019 - 11:41 PM   
 By:   Thor   (Member)

Thor don't know what hack means.

It's quite stunning that English isn't even my first language, and I seem to know what it is better than you English-speaking folks. It's a perfectly legitimate adjective to use, if that is one's evaluation of the composer's output. Look it up in dictionaries! One is free to disagree, of course, and I would agree that it's often used too casually without being informed, but that's not the case for any of the people I mentioned. I'm plenty informed about their work (but I'll check out that early Franglen, First Breath, thanks for the recommendation!).

Now, 'renaming' a composer one doesn't like for derogatory purposes ("Junkie XS", "Lorne Barfe", "Hanz Zimmer" are some examples I've seen on this forum), THAT is childish, I'll give you that. Just as it is to tell someone "to grow up" because one doesn't agree with their evaluation.

 
 
 Posted:   Dec 18, 2019 - 12:34 AM   
 By:   1977   (Member)

It's quite stunning that English isn't even my first language, and I seem to know what it is better than you English-speaking folks. It's a perfectly legitimate adjective to use

Re "hack" , don't you mean noun, Thor? As in, "composer XYZ is a hack". Apologies if I'm misunderstanding.

I've never really understood the use of hack in the context. Is it "to cut with rough or heavy blows" meaning lacking subtlety? Or is it implying hacking someone else's work as in cribbing (the way one would hack a computer)? Anyone care to enlighten me?

 
 
 Posted:   Dec 18, 2019 - 12:48 AM   
 By:   keky   (Member)

Since Franglen worked on almost every single Horner score it is a logical choice. I liked how he handled The Magnificent Seven, a very good score in my opinion. So I'm looking forward to what he will do with Pandora and Horner's legacy.

 
 
 Posted:   Dec 18, 2019 - 4:55 AM   
 By:   Thor   (Member)

Re "hack" , don't you mean noun, Thor? As in, "composer XYZ is a hack". Apologies if I'm misunderstanding

No, in the adjective sense, as in 'hack writing'. In its purest meaning, it also denotes a deliberate, cynical vie for money at the cost of quality, and that may not apply to the composers in question. It isn't necessarily deliberate all the time (although in some cases I think it is); just a lack of talent. But there's a definite discrepancy between the (low) level of quality in their work and their popularity.

 
 Posted:   Dec 18, 2019 - 5:02 AM   
 By:   Mark Langdon   (Member)

*Wanders on to FSM board for first time in ages... Sees exactly why it's been ages since last time visiting the FSM board... Wanders off again.*

 
 Posted:   Dec 18, 2019 - 7:49 AM   
 By:   Justin Boggan   (Member)

Mr. Marshall:
Al Franken isn't even a.composer-


I agree.

Now, Simon Franglen is a composer...

 
 Posted:   Dec 18, 2019 - 8:04 AM   
 By:   CCW1970   (Member)

*Wanders on to FSM board for first time in ages... Sees exactly why it's been ages since last time visiting the FSM board... Wanders off again.*

Sadly, I have a similar experience often.

 
 
 Posted:   Dec 18, 2019 - 8:30 AM   
 By:   Spymaster   (Member)

An yet, Thor, you'd have preferred James Newton Howard - a composer who leaves me absolutely cold on nearly every score! I struggle to follow your logic - but what else is new?

 
 Posted:   Dec 18, 2019 - 8:38 AM   
 By:   Solium   (Member)

Thor don't know what hack means.

It's quite stunning that English isn't even my first language, and I seem to know what it is better than you English-speaking folks. It's a perfectly legitimate adjective to use, if that is one's evaluation of the composer's output. Look it up in dictionaries! One is free to disagree, of course, and I would agree that it's often used too casually without being informed, but that's not the case for any of the people I mentioned. I'm plenty informed about their work (but I'll check out that early Franglen, First Breath, thanks for the recommendation!).

Now, 'renaming' a composer one doesn't like for derogatory purposes ("Junkie XS", "Lorne Barfe", "Hanz Zimmer" are some examples I've seen on this forum), THAT is childish, I'll give you that. Just as it is to tell someone "to grow up" because one doesn't agree with their evaluation.


Giacchino isn't a hack. Calling him that is derogatory. So you're either using the wrong word or just smearing the guy because you don't like him. Now JJ Abrams IS a hack and you love and fawn over him. So you're criticism are flawed to begin with.

 
 Posted:   Dec 18, 2019 - 8:46 AM   
 By:   Mike Esssss   (Member)

Well, this is going about as expected.

For what it's worth, "hack" in its adjective form doesn't specifically mean lacking in quality, as has been suggested here. It specifically means well-worn, trite, unoriginal. Those are symptoms suggesting a lack of quality, but not dispositive. A film score can be unoriginal and still very effective and entertaining. So if you were to describe something as "hack" by way of explaining that you don't think it's very good, it's not exactly on point.

In any case, I don't think it's a fair label to throw on Franglen at this point since it has been his job in the last few years, and again on these sequels, essentially to ape someone else's work.

And not that I really have a dog in the fight but I'm also baffled that someone would describe Alexandre Desplat, of all composers, as a hack. I don't love all of his scores, but a hack he is not.

 
 Posted:   Dec 18, 2019 - 9:30 AM   
 By:   'Lenny Bruce' Marshall   (Member)

An yet, Thor, you'd have preferred James Newton Howard - a composer who leaves me absolutely cold on nearly every score! I struggle to follow your logic - but what else is new?

The man has a point.....

 
 Posted:   Dec 18, 2019 - 9:33 AM   
 By:   Solium   (Member)

An yet, Thor, you'd have preferred James Newton Howard - a composer who leaves me absolutely cold on nearly every score! I struggle to follow your logic - but what else is new?

The man has a point.....


Has Last Child taken over your account?

 
 
 Posted:   Dec 18, 2019 - 9:38 AM   
 By:   BrenKel   (Member)

Well, this is going about as expected.

For what it's worth, "hack" in its adjective form doesn't specifically mean lacking in quality, as has been suggested here. It specifically means well-worn, trite, unoriginal. Those are symptoms suggesting a lack of quality, but not dispositive. A film score can be unoriginal and still very effective and entertaining. So if you were to describe something as "hack" by way of explaining that you don't think it's very good, it's not exactly on point.

In any case, I don't think it's a fair label to throw on Franglen at this point since it has been his job in the last few years, and again on these sequels, essentially to ape someone else's work.

And not that I really have a dog in the fight but I'm also baffled that someone would describe Alexandre Desplat, of all composers, as a hack. I don't love all of his scores, but a hack he is not.


This /\

 
 Posted:   Dec 18, 2019 - 9:38 AM   
 By:   'Lenny Bruce' Marshall   (Member)

An yet, Thor, you'd have preferred James Newton Howard - a composer who leaves me absolutely cold on nearly every score! I struggle to follow your logic - but what else is new?

The man has a point.....


Has Last Child taken over your account?


Who?
Never heard of him/her.

 
 
 Posted:   Dec 18, 2019 - 9:45 AM   
 By:   KeoNato   (Member)

Right, so people who don't share your evaluation of things 'need to grow up'? I would argue THAT is the childish rhetoric here.

But hey, I'll give Franglen the benefit of the doubt for now. Even a broken clock is right once a day.


It’s not that, man. It’s that you don’t need to be a jerk about it. Can’t believe this needs to be told to an adult.

 
 
 Posted:   Dec 18, 2019 - 9:47 AM   
 By:   tobid   (Member)

I quickly went over my collection. By mere quantity of releases after my "big four" (Bernstein, Goldsmith, Horner, Williams) comes a group with about the same amount of releases each: Giacchino (according to Thor one of the, if not THE biggest hack in the business), Desplat (not far behind according to Thor), Elfman (largely his big symphonic stuff, which, according to Thor, he shouldn't do any more), Doyle (whose score for ALL IS TRUE is the first worthwhile thing he's done in years according to Thor) and Howard (whose represented output in my collection is growing thinner by each passing decade, but who should take up Horner's legacy on AVATAR according to Thor).
So I might just be the ultimate hack listener... or is it listening hack? I don't know anymore.

On the other hand I would apply everything Thor said concerning hack writing to another group of composers. But somehow I don't feel the need to bring this up in every single thread...
I agree with Thor on the topic of changing names for "funny" results being quite childish, although I make one exception: If you call yourself Junkie XL you deserve any ridicule you receive.

Back to the topic of Avatar, I think Franglen is the one composer who will stay closest to Horner's original atyle and sound, so I will keep a positive stance for the time being.

 
 
 Posted:   Dec 18, 2019 - 9:55 AM   
 By:   jwb1   (Member)

I would have preferred Alan Silvestri for this project, honestly.

 
 
 Posted:   Dec 18, 2019 - 10:37 AM   
 By:   Thor   (Member)

For what it's worth, "hack" in its adjective form doesn't specifically mean lacking in quality, as has been suggested here. It specifically means well-worn, trite, unoriginal. Those are symptoms suggesting a lack of quality, but not dispositive.

That depends entirely on which definition you use. Here's one from Cambridge that is closer to my idea of it, for example (although it's placed under 'noun' rather than 'adjective'): https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/hack

I see it as a perfectly legitimate word to use to describe composers who you not only consider low in talent and quality, but also overrated and overused ("The Emperor's New Clothes"), and even resorting to lazy, unoriginal solutions; that's the more cynical part of the definition. In other words -- people who have succeeded in the business, but where their success is not mirrored in the quality of their work. But hey, I'm open to other, better words -- if one exists that has an equally negative value. The important thing was to highlight my distaste for Franglen (and the other composers) and their "take-over" of things I love; not necessarily which negative word describes them best. A "Battle of Semantics" is only entertaining up to a certain point.

It's funny....the word 'hack' has been brandied about here on FSM multiple times over the years, usually in relation to composers like Balfe or JXL or Zimmer or whatever, but it's never caused an outrage. This leads me to believe it's actually my distaste of THESE PARTICULAR COMPOSERS that is the issue (hence a differing evaluation), not really the word in question. And so the response to a negative minority evaluation of these composers is that you are a 'jerk' and that you need to 'grow up'. Fascinating.

 
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