 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Not familiar with the score. Samples sound like Jerry in his 90's autopilot mode.
From what I started reading about the score it's the opposite (obviously the years can tell you that).
But it seems like this was the beginning of a lot of his ideas throughout the 90s and since the film wasn't very successful and he never quite got the satisfaction from this project, those ideas would crop up again throughout the 90s.
I'm also not familiar with the score myself, though while listening to it there are aspects that sound slightly underdeveloped, I'm intrigued enough to purchase!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
um, I agree that TMP and Nimh are masterworks, but I do not hear either of those other scores in Lionheart. It is actually, by design a more spare work to me, somewhat more of a chamber music sound in sections. Which is quite different than his works of that era.
To me, Lionheart does not sound at all like any Goldsmith score that came before it (aside from the normal stylistic traits that run through all his work). It was his first time writing music for a medieval setting. I do think the subsequent scores in his unofficial "medieval trilogy", First Knight and Timeline, have a lot of passages that sound like Lionheart. But since Lionheart is a top 10 Goldsmith score for me, I count that as a GREAT thing, not something to complain about...
Yavar
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I think just about all Jerry Goldsmith scores range from good to excellent, even his weaker efforts usually have something of interest to me musically.
LIONHEART could be -- and perhaps would be -- regarded a minor Goldsmith classic, were it not for the fact that A) the movie tanked and B) the performance of the music is weak. It wasn't the best moment for the "Hungarian State Symphony Orchestra" (a session orchestra, as I learned today). In our modern era, we are so used to hear polished, perfect performances, our ears are spoiled beyond believe because everybody can have the London Symphony Orchestra or the Berlin Philharmonic in their living room. Well, the orchestra Goldsmith recorded LIONHEART with was not up to that standard. But the score is very good.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
 |
Posted: |
Apr 30, 2021 - 9:17 AM
|
|
|
|
By: |
EdG
(Member)
|
I think just about all Jerry Goldsmith scores range from good to excellent, even his weaker efforts usually have something of interest to me musically.
LIONHEART could be -- and perhaps would be -- regarded a minor Goldsmith classic, were it not for the fact that A) the movie tanked and B) the performance of the music is weak. It wasn't the best moment for the "Hungarian State Symphony Orchestra" (a session orchestra, as I learned today). In our modern era, we are so used to hear polished, perfect performances, our ears are spoiled beyond believe because everybody can have the London Symphony Orchestra or the Berlin Philharmonic in their living room. Well, the orchestra Goldsmith recorded LIONHEART with was not up to that standard. But the score is very good.
Agreed, except that I think the score IS a Goldsmith classic, not just a minor one.
Goldsmith had no end of trouble with the brass section (as you can hear) and, interestingly, Intrada was on hand to record their ISLANDS IN THE STREAM re-recording at the same sessions. They encountered the same issue which is why "Eddy's Death" wasn't included on the album. It must be pointed out that Intrada's recording turned out beautifully anyway.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Regarding the movie, apparently it was originally planned as something a lot more epic and suffered from dramatic budget cuts before they started filming--a great disappointment to Schaffner. It has some nice photography and shots but they didn't have the budget to stage any really effective or impressive action, and Eric Stoltz is just a black hole in the lead.
Not only were their budget cuts before filming which harmed this film's promise (aside from Stoltz in the lead; that I agree was always going to be terrible), but there were substantial cuts made to the film *after* Jerry scored it, which I suspect hurt the narrative of the film as well as Jerry's score, which is hacked and slashed all over the place. (David at The Goldsmith Odyssey figured out all the details of how the cues are treated in film, if you'd like me to pass it along to you.)
I was just noticing a nice short percussion cue not on the album last time I watched so I'm happy to see the extra material.
Sorry Jeff but this cue was not among the material Doug Fake provided from his dupe tape from the Hungarian sessions. I was so hoping it would be there, because I dig that little half minute of percussion writing (titled "Saracen Ride"), but I suspect since it was written just for percussion and not full orchestra, it was done at a later pickup session and not at the Hungarian sessions Doug attended -- for more background info you can read this post I wrote at JWFan:
https://www.jwfan.com/forums/index.php?/topic/33732-jerry-goldsmiths-lionheart-1987-new-2021-2cd-varese-deluxe-edition/&do=findComment&comment=1806414
But for those curious to hear the still missing (and probably always missing) brief cue, which is the only Goldsmith music in the film but not on this album, I shared a film rip of it in the Intrada thread "That Unreleased Cue" back on March 6th of this year (nobody really tried to guess it):
http://www.intrada.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=8073&start=150
If Lionheart ever does get a re-recording, it'd be great if that cue gets included.
Yavar
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
But for Lionheart they managed to book the better players which were credited as the "Hungarian State Symphony Orchestra"; these players had more experience with playing more complex orchestral music and they coped with Jerry's writing better, if not as well as say the National Philharmonic would have done.
Interestingly, I thought this was one of the less successful recordings Goldsmith did in Hungary. The following RAMBO III was better.
You can hear it's not the most polished orchestra... they do not play or sound anywhere near in the same league as the National Philharmonic Orchestra (which was one of the best session orchestras that existed on the planet, assembling the best musicians from London's finest orchestras, such as the London Symphony, London Philharmonic, etc.).
|
|
|
|
|
|
um, I agree that TMP and Nimh are masterworks, but I do not hear either of those other scores in Lionheart. It is actually, by design a more spare work to me, somewhat more of a chamber music sound in sections. Which is quite different than his works of that era.
To me, Lionheart does not sound at all like any Goldsmith score that came before it (aside from the normal stylistic traits that run through all his work). It was his first time writing music for a medieval setting. I do think the subsequent scores in his unofficial "medieval trilogy", First Knight and Timeline, have a lot of passages that sound like Lionheart. But since Lionheart is a top 10 Goldsmith score for me, I count that as a GREAT thing, not something to complain about...
Yavar
It would be like if Star Wars Eps. 7-9 were your first Star Wars scores and then you listen to the original trilogy and complain they sound too much like Williams' stuff for the 7-9 sequels...
|
|
|
|
|
|
What? Come on, you don't really mean that??
Oh, they might have coped probably well with what they had and could do, but you can hear it's not the most polished orchestra... they do not play or sound anywhere near in the same league as the National Philharmonic Orchestra (which was one of the best session orchestras that existed on the planet, assembling the best musicians from London's finest orchestras, such as the London Symphony, London Philharmonic, etc.).
I literally said in my post they didn't do as well as the National Philharmonic (or those other fine orchestras you list) would have done. But I think they coped much better than the musicians performing on any other Goldsmith recording in Hungary; that's all I was saying. I'm able to enjoy their performance much more than say Rambo III, which is a five-star composition just like the first two Rambo scores but many people don't realize it because the performance was so inferior.
Yavar
|
|
|
|
|
|
I literally said in my post they didn't do as well as the National Philharmonic (or those other fine orchestras you list)
Oh, indeed, sorry, my fault, I misread you. I should not do multitasking. :-)
I edited my post up there therefore.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I love this score. Very excited to hear the 2 new tracks and remastering.
|
|
|
|
|
|
It would be like if Star Wars Eps. 7-9 were your first Star Wars scores and then you listen to the original trilogy and complain they sound too much like Williams' stuff for the 7-9 sequels...
Yeah... and speaking of Secret of NIMH -- the score to Legend, which everyone widely hails as a masterpiece (and it is), owes quite a bit more to the more impressionistic writing in NIMH than Lionheart does, but I don't recall anyone ever suggesting it was "too familiar" or too derivative of earlier Goldsmith scores. I've long heard a connection between NIMH and Legend, but this is the first I've ever even considered a connection between NIMH and Lionheart. I'd be curious what cues specifically made someone hear it (not that solium hearing it isn't valid to his own experience; it just surprises and confuses me).
Yavar
|
|
|
|
|
|
I would say Extreme Prejudice is the best of the Hungarianated performances (Rent-a-Cop is another besides Rambo III and Lionheart, isn't it?).
I think Lionheart is *way* better performed than Extreme Prejudice, Rent-a-Cop, Rambo III, and yes even Hoosiers... and apparently so did Jerry, according to recording engineer Mike Ross-Trevor when I spoke with him a couple years ago...here's that link again: https://goldsmithodyssey.buzzsprout.com/159614/1470520-odyssey-interviews-mike-ross-trevor
Yavar
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
