Film Score Monthly
FSM HOME MESSAGE BOARD FSM CDs FSM ONLINE RESOURCES FUN STUFF ABOUT US  SEARCH FSM   
Search Terms: 
Search Within:   search tips 
You must log in or register to post.
  Go to page:    
 
 Posted:   Jul 25, 2021 - 4:11 PM   
 By:   Jurassic T. Park   (Member)

I’m confused…
Hasnt there only been released TWO tracks? One from the OST and one from the Sketches album?
Which means you have heard one cue from the movie and already written it off…?
what if the rest is amazing??
Or did the full score get released? It sure sounds like it in this thread lol



Fair enough.
Let's hope you're right.
Let's hope that 3 CD's worth of music will be completely unlike these 2 tracks.
I love optimism.


I’m happy for the movie to succeed if it’s good.

But someone made the decision to release these two specific tracks. Maybe the goal was to lower expectations so we’ll be impressed later? Or save the best stuff to surprise the audience? But why even do any of that when the risk is high that people wouldn’t understand and would assume the music is just bad? Why not release a short clip of something that hints at the scope of the film? If there was better music that they had I would think they’d release it. It’s also indicative of how so much of the Zimmer package is marketing.

It all just smells fishy to me.

I wouldn’t be surprised if now they’re feverishly scrubbing the music to remove the wailing voice we all critiqued and change it entirely. Zimmer has probably like 400 hours of sketches so it’s not like we’d even know.

 
 
 Posted:   Jul 25, 2021 - 4:13 PM   
 By:   Jurassic T. Park   (Member)

I wouldn’t be surprised if now they’re feverishly scrubbing the music to remove the wailing voice we all critiqued and change it entirely. Zimmer has probably like 400 hours of sketches so it’s not like we’d even know.

Whoah so what do you think the possibility is that Zimmer uses an AI generator to make music and he simply puts in the parameters and then the output is the 4,000 hours of sketches that are just selected from?

 
 Posted:   Jul 25, 2021 - 4:25 PM   
 By:   Octoberdog   (Member)

Whoah so what do you think the possibility is that Zimmer uses an AI generator to make music and he simply puts in the parameters and then the output is the 4,000 hours of sketches that are just selected from?


Don't move. Some guys are on their way.

 
 
 Posted:   Jul 25, 2021 - 4:40 PM   
 By:   Jurassic T. Park   (Member)

Whoah so what do you think the possibility is that Zimmer uses an AI generator to make music and he simply puts in the parameters and then the output is the 4,000 hours of sketches that are just selected from?


Don't move. Some guys are on their way.


Yeah right. For talking about Zimmer’s 40,000 hours of sketches? Everything is perfectly fi…

Aghhhhhh! They’re heeeere!!!!!

 
 Posted:   Jul 25, 2021 - 5:05 PM   
 By:   Octoberdog   (Member)

Yeah right. For talking about Zimmer’s 40,000 hours of sketches? Everything is perfectly fi…
Aghhhhhh! They’re heeeere!!!!!



Zimmer (grinning with evil):
"Excellent....."

 
 
 Posted:   Jul 25, 2021 - 6:54 PM   
 By:   Mephariel   (Member)

I’m confused…
Hasnt there only been released TWO tracks? One from the OST and one from the Sketches album?
Which means you have heard one cue from the movie and already written it off…?
what if the rest is amazing??
Or did the full score get released? It sure sounds like it in this thread lol



Fair enough.
Let's hope you're right.
Let's hope that 3 CD's worth of music will be completely unlike these 2 tracks.
I love optimism.


I’m happy for the movie to succeed if it’s good.

But someone made the decision to release these two specific tracks. Maybe the goal was to lower expectations so we’ll be impressed later? Or save the best stuff to surprise the audience? But why even do any of that when the risk is high that people wouldn’t understand and would assume the music is just bad? Why not release a short clip of something that hints at the scope of the film? If there was better music that they had I would think they’d release it. It’s also indicative of how so much of the Zimmer package is marketing.

It all just smells fishy to me.

I wouldn’t be surprised if now they’re feverishly scrubbing the music to remove the wailing voice we all critiqued and change it entirely. Zimmer has probably like 400 hours of sketches so it’s not like we’d even know.


LOL. This is how out of touch this board is. This board thinks film music fans are the target audience.

On this board:
"WW84 is amazing, Zimmer's best in years!"
"Dunkirk sucks."
"Blade Runner 2049 sucks."
"Man of Steel sucks."

The actual target audience:
"Dunkirk is awesome."
"Man of Steel is awesome."
"Blade Runner 2049 is awesome."
"WW84 is ok. Zimmer writing a generic score."

Zimmer has over 6 million Spotify listeners every month (2 million more than second place John Williams). You think they are all from this board and the JWfan board?

"Supermarine," a cue from Dunkirk which this board dismissed as trash has 9+ million listeners.

There is no risk in releasing tracks from Dune. Dune will easily outsell WW84 and it won't even be close. Especially since there is a good chance it will be nominated for some awards.

 
 Posted:   Jul 25, 2021 - 7:00 PM   
 By:   Octoberdog   (Member)

LOL. This is how out of touch this board is. This board thinks film music fans are the target audience.


Yes, that's quite possible.
It's also just as possible that Zimmer is out of touch with quality scoring in recent years.
I guess we will just never know unless he gets himself out of his self-imposed rut.
big grin

"But, but, Spotify! And YouTube!!"

 
 
 Posted:   Jul 25, 2021 - 7:16 PM   
 By:   Mephariel   (Member)

LOL. This is how out of touch this board is. This board thinks film music fans are the target audience.


Yes, that's quite possible.
It's also just as possible that Zimmer is out of touch with quality scoring in recent years.
I guess we will just never know unless he gets himself out of his self-imposed rut.
big grin

"But, but, Spotify! And YouTube!!"


Not just possible. This board is completely out of touch with reality. Blade Runner 2049, Zimmer's last effort has been nominated for Grammy, BAFTA, and the opening cue has over 12 million views. Dunkirk was nominated for an Academy Award, Golden Globe, Grammy, and has been praised by Quentin Tarantino. Guðnadóttir's Joker has won every award known in the industry and was dismissed by many in the film music community. One of the cues have 18 million listeners. Lastly, Soul from Reznor and Ross is one of the acclaimed score of all time and this board probably thought it was an embarrassing score.

You don't have to agree with any of those awarding organizations. But the idea that it is a "risk" for Zimmer to release the two cues from Dune is a laughable statement. If anything, they will drive sales and build even more hype. What the industry see as "quality scoring" is completely different than how this board sees it.

This board is like a group of crabby old men who has completely lost sight of the current industry and the target audience. You will never see another group of people this delusional.

 
 
 Posted:   Jul 25, 2021 - 7:59 PM   
 By:   bondo321   (Member)

Having listened to both tracks numerous times, I’m definitely excited for this score. Zimmer is a perfectionist and a workaholic, so all comments about him “not trying” are baseless opinion. I’ll get my facts straight from the source and make up my own opinions. Cheers!

And yes, this board (like the internet in general) has become more “I dislike…” than “I like…”

 
 Posted:   Jul 25, 2021 - 8:02 PM   
 By:   Octoberdog   (Member)

Not just possible. This board is completely out of touch with reality. Blade Runner 2049, Zimmer's last effort has been nominated for Grammy, BAFTA, and the opening cue has over 12 million views. Dunkirk was nominated for an Academy Award, Golden Globe, Grammy, and has been praised by Quentin Tarantino. Guðnadóttir's Joker has won every award known in the industry and was dismissed by many in the film music community. One of the cues have 18 million listeners. Lastly, Soul from Reznor and Ross is one of the acclaimed score of all time and this board probably thought it was an embarrassing score.
You don't have to agree with any of those awarding organizations. But the idea that it is a "risk" for Zimmer to release the two cues from Dune is a laughable statement. If anything, they will drive sales and build even more hype. What the industry see as "quality scoring" is completely different than how this board sees it.
This board is like a group of crabby old men who has completely lost sight of the current industry and the target audience. You will never see another group of people this delusional.



I'm sorry, my friend.
The masses don't get to define what's "good"--only what's "popular".
And the two are sometimes not the same thing.
All the other stuff you mentioned is just moving the goalposts--Zimmer's work is what I'm focused on here.
Spotify, YouTube, award nominations and wins... it really doesn't amount to much.
The "industry" itself is frequently a joke--sometimes it's a morass of creative laziness and sub-par results that have tons of money thrown at it in an attempt to convince people (who sometimes don't know any better)
that it's "good" or "original".

Incidentally, when you mention "risk", I don't know what you are referring to--I certainly didn't mention it in my posts.

If you see this board as crabby old men, it is through a very narrow lens all its own.
With age sometimes comes discernment.
No one is telling you to like what we like or not like.
I don't think anyone here on this thread attacked you personally.
Correct me if I'm wrong and I will stand corrected.
And if anyone did, take it up with them.
If you like all Zimmer's recent work, great.
That doesn't obligate anyone else to, nor does it give you the right to denigrate anyone here.

I already said that I like plenty of Zimmer's past work quite a bit.
If the fact I don't like his recent work disgruntles you, that's not my problem.
However, I do think that the banter on these threads can stay civil as long as we follow the 1st Commandment Of Debate.

 
 Posted:   Jul 25, 2021 - 8:21 PM   
 By:   King Solium   (Member)

"WW84 is amazing, Zimmer's best in years!"
"Dunkirk sucks."
"Blade Runner 2049 sucks."
"Man of Steel sucks."



This is correct!

 
 Posted:   Jul 25, 2021 - 8:26 PM   
 By:   King Solium   (Member)


This board is like a group of crabby old men who has completely lost sight of the current industry and the target audience. You will never see another group of people this delusional.


Yes, a target audience raised on auto-tune.

 
 Posted:   Jul 25, 2021 - 8:52 PM   
 By:   Spinmeister   (Member)

 
 Posted:   Jul 25, 2021 - 8:52 PM   
 By:   Octoberdog   (Member)

Yes, a target audience raised on auto-tune.


Dangit!
How come I can never come up with the snappy comedy retorts like that?
Ock sad.

 
 Posted:   Jul 25, 2021 - 8:53 PM   
 By:   Octoberdog   (Member)

And now Spin comes in!
Double dangit!

 
 
 Posted:   Jul 25, 2021 - 9:16 PM   
 By:   Mephariel   (Member)

Not just possible. This board is completely out of touch with reality. Blade Runner 2049, Zimmer's last effort has been nominated for Grammy, BAFTA, and the opening cue has over 12 million views. Dunkirk was nominated for an Academy Award, Golden Globe, Grammy, and has been praised by Quentin Tarantino. Guðnadóttir's Joker has won every award known in the industry and was dismissed by many in the film music community. One of the cues have 18 million listeners. Lastly, Soul from Reznor and Ross is one of the acclaimed score of all time and this board probably thought it was an embarrassing score.
You don't have to agree with any of those awarding organizations. But the idea that it is a "risk" for Zimmer to release the two cues from Dune is a laughable statement. If anything, they will drive sales and build even more hype. What the industry see as "quality scoring" is completely different than how this board sees it.
This board is like a group of crabby old men who has completely lost sight of the current industry and the target audience. You will never see another group of people this delusional.



I'm sorry, my friend.
The masses don't get to define what's "good"--only what's "popular".
And the two are sometimes not the same thing.
All the other stuff you mentioned is just moving the goalposts--Zimmer's work is what I'm focused on here.
Spotify, YouTube, award nominations and wins... it really doesn't amount to much.
The "industry" itself is frequently a joke--sometimes it's a morass of creative laziness and sub-par results that have tons of money thrown at it in an attempt to convince people (who sometimes don't know any better)
that it's "good" or "original".

Incidentally, when you mention "risk", I don't know what you are referring to--I certainly didn't mention it in my posts.

If you see this board as crabby old men, it is through a very narrow lens all its own.
With age sometimes comes discernment.
No one is telling you to like what we like or not like.
I don't think anyone here on this thread attacked you personally.
Correct me if I'm wrong and I will stand corrected.
And if anyone did, take it up with them.
If you like all Zimmer's recent work, great.
That doesn't obligate anyone else to, nor does it give you the right to denigrate anyone here.

I already said that I like plenty of Zimmer's past work quite a bit.
If the fact I don't like his recent work disgruntles you, that's not my problem.
However, I do think that the banter on these threads can stay civil as long as we follow the 1st Commandment Of Debate.


I mean, do you even listen to yourself? Th masses are wrong. All those millions of people are wrong. Christopher Nolan, Denis Villeneuve, Ron Howard, Ridley Scott...they are all wrong. They have no clue what good film music is. The industry itself is a joke. That is includes all those acclaim directors, producers like Bruckheimer and Broccoli who picked Zimmer, and even Spielberg, who praised Zimmer and wanted him to be the musical head of DreamWorks. They have no clue either. James Cameron, who has enough musical sense to frequently collaborate with James Horner said that Zimmer, along with Williams and Horner are the 3 best composers in the modern era. Nope, he is wrong. The Academy is wrong. The Golden Globes is wrong. Everyone is wrong if they see film music differently than you.

I do not like all of Zimmer's recent work. I do not like Dunkirk. I do not like Batman v Superman (perhaps one of the worst scores imo that decade), and do not like Inferno or even most of Blade Runner 2049. But I would never say something as dumb as pretending like releasing the two cues is a "risk" and some sort of attempt to lower expectations. That was in response not to you, but to Jurassic T. Park. The fact is, there is a huge audience that appreciates that type of music, inside and outside the industry. That is why Awards and streaming services matters. Because they are the majority of the audience, and the two cues are for them.

Film music community has this notion that film composers compose for them. They do not. They compose for the directors and the films they work for. Those directors have different vision than you do. That doesn't make them a joke.

 
 
 Posted:   Jul 25, 2021 - 9:19 PM   
 By:   Mephariel   (Member)


This board is like a group of crabby old men who has completely lost sight of the current industry and the target audience. You will never see another group of people this delusional.


Yes, a target audience raised on auto-tune.


Like I said, a bunch of crabby old men losing touch with the industry. Delusional beyond belief.

"Me, me, me. Please compose music for me!!!!"

Despite decades listening to film music, still can't understand that composers compose for the directors and the film, not for the film music community.

 
 
 Posted:   Jul 25, 2021 - 9:26 PM   
 By:   Jurassic T. Park   (Member)

Spinmeister convinced me to buy Dragonslayer for which I’m eternally grateful!

Zimmer’s 400,000 hours of sketches aside, it’s probably easiest to just summarize all my main points.

The two music samples from “Dune” suck and I was running through scenarios as to why they’d release them instead of others that could be better. I used the word “risk” somewhere in there.

I thought I had mentioned how nobody cares what film score fans want but I guess I deleted that. While it’s probably true, I was also commenting on how Zimmer has admitted he has visited these boards before and others have had social media encounters with him. While I was partly joking about changing the music, those elements of truth do exist as do people at studios whose job it is to read social media and other message boards to gauge audience response and adjust accordingly. Whether that’s happening here is dubious at best which is why there was a whole joke about me being chased down and tackled by Hans Zimmer (that actually did happen, he found me and he knows I know his secrets, someone help!!!)

The marketing of these music releases is very transparent to me and quite silly. I can’t think of any other composer that does it and it highlights other critiques I have given of Zimmer being more of a producer and marketing package than anything else.

Numbers of listens on Spotify or whatever also don’t really say much either - there is a whole generation of young filmgoers who have never even seen “older” films which is a predicament that art critics and theorists have written about for every generation. Given how heavily Zimmer is marketed I’m not surprised he has the most listens, but given how non-existent the marketing is for John Williams it’s quite impressive he’s still hanging in there in 2nd place!

Anyway, this is all about those two lame samples Zimmer released. Like, why those? Why not something better from his 4,000,000 hours of sketches?

 
 Posted:   Jul 25, 2021 - 9:33 PM   
 By:   Octoberdog   (Member)

Film music community has this notion that film composers compose for them. They do not. They compose for the directors and the films they work for. Those directors have different vision than you do. That doesn't make them a joke.


I'm not making fun of the masses, I'm making fun of Zimmer.
BIG difference.
How that isn't clear to you, I have NO idea.

It seems to really bother you personally that I don't necessarily like what you like.
As I said, not my problem.
You might hate stuff that I absolutely love.
I honestly could not care less.

Wait! Are you Zimmer??
OMG, it all makes sense now!
(I kid.)

 
 
 Posted:   Jul 25, 2021 - 9:41 PM   
 By:   Jurassic T. Park   (Member)


This board is like a group of crabby old men who has completely lost sight of the current industry and the target audience. You will never see another group of people this delusional.


Yes, a target audience raised on auto-tune.


Like I said, a bunch of crabby old men losing touch with the industry. Delusional beyond belief.

"Me, me, me. Please compose music for me!!!!"

Despite decades listening to film music, still can't understand that composers compose for the directors and the film, not for the film music community.


Nobody has said this at all.

For my part, what I have posited is that I find, reinforced by interviews with Zimmer, that his scores are often pushed onto the movie when something different might have been better. I see a lot of flaws in his constant drive to be “experimental” and when compared to other musicians who are considered experimental, find his stuff to be lacking and for this to be a creative blind spot of his. The desire to be “experimental” is applied to literally every project, which creatively makes no sense and is a huge red flag when you consider the point that creative works NEED all elements to match. It is unlikely that Zimmer just happens to be attached to projects that only “experimental”. “Dune” is not experimental (it is weird though, but this is not Jodorowsky’s Dune). “Dunkirk” was not experimental. “The Dark Knight” is not experimental.

What I’ve also posited is in line with the industry, and it’s that Zimmer has been promoting and marketing himself for forever, and he’s good at that. The industry wants sure bets and Zimmer is a sure bet for drawing attention. Many of the films he worked on could have had equally popular orchestral scores had they been such. What is good for the film is not a straightforward answer - if these same films were presented 20-30 years ago, they’d have different scores that likely would have been effective in their own way.

Creatively, emotionally, I don’t find Zimmer’s sound washes to add much to the film beyond being very literal. Much of what he’s scoring is already present in the performances, the cinematography, the sound design, so I don’t see his music bringing anything new or layered. This is critiquing from an out-of-time perspective, separate from the music trends of the moment, and looking at the filmic art as objectively as possible. We know that ambient soundscape music is a trend, so it therefore requires an additional level of analysis to determine if other avenues could have been possible.

With Star Wars, there is a very specific reason why those first movies used a classical orchestra setup, and they did so out of time with trends in the 70s. Why? Because the film needed it. In fact those films rely so much on the correct music that even Lucas acknowledges Star Wars likely wouldn’t have been successful without Williams’ scores.

I’m not hearing Zimmer doing anything beyond his comfort zone and the trends of the moment. Unlike Star Wars, I don’t ever see a creative rationale driven by the film itself for why Zimmer’s music needs to be “experimental” or “daring”. Could “Interstellar” have survived without Zimmer’s score? Yes. Could “Dunkirk” have survived without Zimmer’s score? Yes.

 
You must log in or register to post.
  Go to page:    
© 2021 Film Score Monthly. All Rights Reserved...