 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Strange that people are talking about his 90s work as "early years". For me, they're the pinnacle or heights of his musical powers.
Early years would be the 80s for me, pre-RAIN MAN. A lot of it is hit and miss, but some true gems to be found, like the Nicholas Roeg movies he did with Stanley Myers.
I would counter that he didn't become really popular until the late nineties/early 2000s and he hasn't been around long enough to have had a "late career" yet so I think that's where the distinction is coming from.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I would counter that he didn't become really popular until the late nineties/early 2000s and he hasn't been around long enough to have had a "late career" yet so I think that's where the distinction is coming from.
That's too late. It didn't take long after the establishment of Media Ventures (later Remote Control) in the early 90s that he became one of the absolute top composers in Hollywood, with incredible industrial reach. I'll say it's right around 1994/1995, with THE LION KING first, then CRIMSON TIDE and the insanely popular THE ROCK, which in itself created a new generation of film music fans.
It's true that he wasn't the rock/superstar that he is today, but in musical terms, he was at the absolute pinnacle of his powers, IMO.
I maintain that Zimmer's "early years" would be everything from the early 80s to the late 80s.
I think we're splitting hairs here but looking at Zimmer's imdb page, LION KING was the first really big hit film that he scored, eclipsing box office earnings for all his previous films. So, if anything LION KING was right at the beginning of his rise to fame and probably at least partially responsible for the bigger, more expensive and successful projects that would follow.
My inclusion of LION KING was because I was trying to say something nice about the man's career and I can't really think of any other early scores of his that I care for.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
 |
Posted: |
Jan 25, 2023 - 11:56 AM
|
|
|
|
By: |
Thor
(Member)
|
I think we're splitting hairs here but looking at Zimmer's imdb page, LION KING was the first really big hit film that he scored, eclipsing box office earnings for all his previous films. So, if anything LION KING was right at the beginning of his rise to fame and probably at least partially responsible for the bigger, more expensive and successful projects that would follow.
My inclusion of LION KING was because I was trying to say something nice about the man's career and I can't really think of any other early scores of his that I care for.
Zimmer basically had a rocket to fame when he scored his first Hollywood film, RAIN MAN, and it became such a landmark box office hit. Several big hits followed in its wake, like BLACK RAIN, DRIVING MISS DAISY, DAYS OF THUNDER, THELMA & LOUISE etc. So by the time THE LION KING came along, he was already a major player. It wasn't "early days" anymore. Of course, the Oscar win jettisoned him further, but I think it would be wrong to think of the 90s, especially from the mid 90s onwards, as his "rise to fame" period. That would be his London days, when he toiled away with Stanley Myers -- and occasionally solo -- on adverts, films, television etc, that eventually led to his discovery by Barry Levinson. THOSE are his 'early days'.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I think we're splitting hairs here but looking at Zimmer's imdb page, LION KING was the first really big hit film that he scored, eclipsing box office earnings for all his previous films. So, if anything LION KING was right at the beginning of his rise to fame and probably at least partially responsible for the bigger, more expensive and successful projects that would follow.
My inclusion of LION KING was because I was trying to say something nice about the man's career and I can't really think of any other early scores of his that I care for.
Zimmer basically had a rocket to fame when he scored his first Hollywood film, RAIN MAN, and it became such a landmark box office hit. Several big hits followed in its wake, like BLACK RAIN, DRIVING MISS DAISY, DAYS OF THUNDER, THELMA & LOUISE etc. So by the time THE LION KING came along, he was already a major player. It wasn't "early days" anymore. Of course, the Oscar win jettisoned him further, but I think it would be wrong to think of the 90s, especially from the mid 90s onwards, as his "rise to fame" period. That would be his London days, when he toiled away with Stanley Myers -- and occasionally solo -- on adverts, films, television etc, that eventually led to his discovery by Barry Levinson. THOSE are his 'early days'.
RAIN MAN was big with 172 million in its initial US run.
LION KING had 763 million though.
None of the others cracked 200 million during initial box office runs. LION KING was a blockbuster with a capital B--Disney was riding high on the critical and commercial success of LITTLE MERMAID and BEAUTY AND THE BEAST. Bringing Zimmer in to to take over for Menkin was arguably bigger career move than anything that had come before.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: |
Jan 25, 2023 - 12:56 PM
|
|
|
|
By: |
Thor
(Member)
|
Well, sure, THE LION KING was a bigger hit than RAIN MAN, but RAIN MAN was still a HUGE hit. Unlike many other composers, Zimmer's rise to fame in Hollywood was basically 'instant', and through ingenious business skills and fortunate associations with big time directors (Scottx2, Badham, Donner, Nichols etc.), it only took a couple of years until he was top 5 in Hollywood. The THE LION KING win was the culmination of all of that, not the 'beginning'. I don't know your age, but I was there in the 90s when all of this took place. None of us thought of Zimmer as a 'rising star' at the time; he was well-established and one of the most successful in the industry. I think that's sometimes easy to forget for younger fans, who are mostly into his post-millennium stuff, especially because Zimmer himself doesn't play a lot of pre-millennium titles in his concerts (the last one only had THE LION KING as pre-millennium, for example).
The 90s weren't some obscure "early days", they were Zimmer at his peak.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, sure, THE LION KING was a bigger hit than RAIN MAN, but RAIN MAN was still a HUGE hit. Unlike many other composers, Zimmer's rise to fame in Hollywood was basically 'instant', and through ingenious business skills and fortunate associations with big time directors (Scottx2, Badham, Donner, Nichols etc.), it only took a couple of years until he was top 5 in Hollywood. The THE LION KING win was the culmination of all of that, not the 'beginning'. I don't know your age, but I was there in the 90s when all of this took place. None of us thought of Zimmer as a 'rising star' at the time; he was well-established and one of the most successful in the industry. I think that's sometimes easy to forget for younger fans, who are mostly into his post-millennium stuff, especially because Zimmer himself doesn't play a lot of pre-millennium titles in his concerts (the last one only had THE LION KING as pre-millennium, for example).
The 90s weren't some obscure "early days", they were Zimmer at his peak.
I definitely wouldn't say they were obscure early days and I'm pretty sure I didn't say that. But I will say that our metric for determining career stages is obviously not the same.
To my mind, the 80s were early career, simply by virtue of there not being a film career before that.
The 90s were middle because he was building on his established career and developing a "brand."
The 2000s and up were mid to late career where he was an established "brand" (but I hesitate to use the phrase late career since we don't know how long he will be putting out projects).
But I think we're just splitting hairs here.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: |
Jan 25, 2023 - 1:22 PM
|
|
|
|
By: |
Thor
(Member)
|
Well, don't know about 'splitting hairs'; it's important to have some historical facts and contexts in order.
I do disagree with you in the career stages, simply by virtue of the fact that I was there as a teenager and young man in the 90s, being in awe of Zimmer's position in the industry (and obviously a huge fan myself). Especially when THE ROCK came out, and people who weren't usually interested in film music suddenly talked about the score left and right. It became the STAR WARS of that generation, recruiting more fans to our little niche. Zimmer was already as huge as Morricone and Williams at the time, it's not something that happened after the year 2000.
It's kind of the same thing I see when (especially younger) people think Williams' career started with JAWS, whereas - in actuality - he was already a top composer when the shark movie came out, with several A list films to his name (starting with 1966's HOW TO STEAL A MILLION), several Oscar nominations, one Oscar win, some very successful disaster movies and so on. He had been in the industry for almost 20 years already, and built his career slowly and steadily.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, don't know about 'splitting hairs'; it's important to have some historical facts and contexts in order.
I do disagree with you in the career stages, simply by virtue of the fact that I was there as a teenager and young man in the 90s, being in awe of Zimmer's position in the industry (and obviously a huge fan myself). Especially when THE ROCK came out, and people who weren't usually interested in film music suddenly talked about the score left and right. It became the STAR WARS of that generation, recruiting more fans to our little niche. Zimmer was already as huge as Morricone and Williams at the time, it's not something that happened after the year 2000.
It's kind of the same thing I see when (especially younger) people think Williams' career started with JAWS, whereas - in actuality - he was already a top composer when the shark movie came out, with several A list films to his name (starting with 1966's HOW TO STEAL A MILLION), several Oscar nominations, one Oscar win, some very successful disaster movies and so on. He had been in the industry for almost 20 years already, and built his career slowly and steadily.
The Williams comparison is interesting...in 1993, the year before THE LION KING, Zimmer played synths on MASK OF THE PHANTASM and got a mention in the credits but his name was nowhere else on the packaging. If he was as big as say, Williams or Morricone at that time, I would argue that his name would have been a selling point for the product and would have been more prominently displayed.
Williams played that legendary bass riff on piano for Henry Mancini's PETER GUNN album in 1956, two years before his first listed credit, PLAYHOUSE 90. Williams was credited on the GUNN album and had a nice little mention in the liner notes.
You can draw your own conclusions from that.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: |
Jan 26, 2023 - 2:02 AM
|
|
|
|
By: |
Thor
(Member)
|
The Williams comparison is interesting...in 1993, the year before THE LION KING, Zimmer played synths on MASK OF THE PHANTASM and got a mention in the credits but his name was nowhere else on the packaging. If he was as big as say, Williams or Morricone at that time, I would argue that his name would have been a selling point for the product and would have been more prominently displayed.
I was talking about the mid 90s, around 1995. But anyway, not sure what that's supposed to mean. Plenty of examples of composers and artists who do smaller, even uncredited gigs long after they've become big and famous, maybe as favours for friends. In 1985, David Gilmour plays guitar on the title song of Supertramp's BROTHER WHERE YOU BOUND, without any other fuss than a small mention inside the booklet. Even if he was one of the biggest guitarists in the world at the time.
Williams played that legendary bass riff on piano for Henry Mancini's PETER GUNN album in 1956, two years before his first listed credit, PLAYHOUSE 90. Williams was credited on the GUNN album and had a nice little mention in the liner notes.
Again, not sure about what conclusion I should draw from that, in the discussion on Zimmer's early years. But to be precise, the first PETER GUNN album was recorded in 1958, in August/September, not 1956, last time I checked.
If your point, however, was to highlight the lack of visibility of credits, Williams also had his fair share of those. Like Belafonte's CALPYSO or THE JAMES DEAN STORY or other things where he's basically uncredited.
But if we do agree that Williams' "early years" are late 50s to late 60s, it shouldn't be a stretch to say that Zimmer's early years are early 80s to late 80s (I'd POSSIBLY be willing to stretch the period to 1992-ish).
All of this may sound like nitpicking for anyone reading, but semantics matter! 
If we lay the "early years" description to rest, however, there are plenty of great things to say about Zimmer's 90s period -- his "Golden Age", as I like to say. Most of my top 10 Zimmers are from this period; only a handful of post-millennium scores are able to reach that level.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, sure, THE LION KING was a bigger hit than RAIN MAN, but RAIN MAN was still a HUGE hit. Unlike many other composers, Zimmer's rise to fame in Hollywood was basically 'instant', and through ingenious business skills and fortunate associations with big time directors (Scottx2, Badham, Donner, Nichols etc.), it only took a couple of years until he was top 5 in Hollywood. The THE LION KING win was the culmination of all of that, not the 'beginning'. I don't know your age, but I was there in the 90s when all of this took place. None of us thought of Zimmer as a 'rising star' at the time; he was well-established and one of the most successful in the industry. I think that's sometimes easy to forget for younger fans, who are mostly into his post-millennium stuff, especially because Zimmer himself doesn't play a lot of pre-millennium titles in his concerts (the last one only had THE LION KING as pre-millennium, for example).
The 90s weren't some obscure "early days", they were Zimmer at his peak.
The RAIN MAN-score got an Oscar-nomination too.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
The Williams comparison is interesting...in 1993, the year before THE LION KING, Zimmer played synths on MASK OF THE PHANTASM and got a mention in the credits but his name was nowhere else on the packaging. If he was as big as say, Williams or Morricone at that time, I would argue that his name would have been a selling point for the product and would have been more prominently displayed.
I was talking about the mid 90s, around 1995. But anyway, not sure what that's supposed to mean. Plenty of examples of composers and artists who do smaller, even uncredited gigs long after they've become big and famous, maybe as favours for friends. In 1985, David Gilmour plays guitar on the title song of Supertramp's BROTHER WHERE YOU BOUND, without any other fuss than a small mention inside the booklet. Even if he was one of the biggest guitarists in the world at the time.
Williams played that legendary bass riff on piano for Henry Mancini's PETER GUNN album in 1956, two years before his first listed credit, PLAYHOUSE 90. Williams was credited on the GUNN album and had a nice little mention in the liner notes.
Again, not sure about what conclusion I should draw from that, in the discussion on Zimmer's early years. But to be precise, the first PETER GUNN album was recorded in 1958, in August/September, not 1956, last time I checked.
If your point, however, was to highlight the lack of visibility of credits, Williams also had his fair share of those. Like Belafonte's CALPYSO or THE JAMES DEAN STORY or other things where he's basically uncredited.
But if we do agree that Williams' "early years" are late 50s to late 60s, it shouldn't be a stretch to say that Zimmer's early years are early 80s to late 80s (I'd POSSIBLY be willing to stretch the period to 1992-ish).
All of this may sound like nitpicking for anyone reading, but semantics matter!
If we lay the "early years" description to rest, however, there are plenty of great things to say about Zimmer's 90s period -- his "Golden Age", as I like to say. Most of my top 10 Zimmers are from this period; only a handful of post-millennium scores are able to reach that level.
My whole point in bringing that up is to refute your anecdotal claim that Zimmer was as big as Williams or Morricone pre-LION KING because that's how YOU remember it...
Again, I don't really care for Zimmer so the semantics don't matter to me but it seems disingenuous for fans of his to imply that LION KING had less of an impact on his career than anything that came before it--the film grossed almost a billion dollars and was likely instrumental in his move to Dreamworks.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: |
Jan 26, 2023 - 6:15 AM
|
|
|
|
By: |
Thor
(Member)
|
My whole point in bringing that up is to refute your anecdotal claim that Zimmer was as big as Williams or Morricone pre-LION KING because that's how YOU remember it...that's ridiculous.
I didn't say anything about the early 90s or pre-LION KING. I was speaking about his glory days in the mid 90s, when he was easily in that company. That's a separate discusison from his rise to fame with RAIN MAN onwards, where he perhaps wasn't in that company yet, but doing one big film hit after the other. RAIN MAN was the Hollywood breakthrough, and all the subsequent films were building further on that breakthrough.
Again, I don't really care for Zimmer so the semantics don't matter to me but it seems disingenuous for fans of his to imply that LION KING had less of an impact on his career than anything that came before it--the film grossed almost a billion dollars. But, again...it matters not to me, just funny.
I don't see anyone diminishing the impact of THE LION KING and its Oscar win, only pointing out that he was a big composer PRIOR to that, with some of the film successes I previously mentioned. He was not in his "early days", he was established and becoming bigger and bigger by the year. The "early days" will always and forever be the days prior to his moving to LA. Or even more succinctly, his "British years", as this CD album covers:
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I didn't say anything about the early 90s or pre-LION KING. I was speaking about his glory days in the mid 90s, when he was easily in that company. That's a separate discusison from his rise to fame with RAIN MAN onwards, where he perhaps wasn't in that company yet, but doing one big film hit after the other. RAIN MAN was the Hollywood breakthrough, and all the subsequent films were building further on that breakthrough.
A breakthrough does not a super-star make. If semantics are so important, you should have said you meant the mid-to-late nineties. My only issue with your argument is the implication that he was as big as Morricone or Williams at ANY point in the 90s or before. Nothing I have seen supports that claim.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: |
Jan 26, 2023 - 6:32 AM
|
|
|
|
By: |
Thor
(Member)
|
A breakthrough does not a super-star make. If semantics are so important, you should have said you meant the mid-to-late nineties. My only issue with your argument is the implication that he was as big as Morricone or Williams at ANY point in the 90s or before. Nothing I have seen supports that claim.
I suppose you weren't around at the time. Go back to any fanzine at the time (FSM or otherwise), or even industry magazines, and it's pretty clear. Even though he wasn't the rock star he is today, he recruited far more new film music fans than those gentlemen, and was a reference point in all discussions. In many cases, he was a greater and more popular crossover composer than Morricone or Williams.
I just think it's absurd to say that a composer 10-15 years into his career, with huge blockbuster films to his name, a thriving company, eventually even an Oscar win etc. is somehow still in his "early years". Makes no sense. As I alluded to earlier, it's like saying Williams with JAWS was in his "early years" at the time.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
