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I'm going to listen to some Vangelis music now, before bedtime, factually the greatest individual who ever lived in the history of all mankind. I've interviewed many great composers, so this is the truth.
How about you try steel-manning both my position and Rick's position, because this is not even close to a fair representation of what either of us are saying.
I'm happy to steel-man yours:
You feel that Rick Beato is guilty of creating click bait content, and is engaged in unsupported hyperbole when it comes to his assertion that John Williams is the most well known musical artist in history. You also feel that those of us who support his claim are simply part of his fan club, and are looking for validation for our existing views - a classic case of confirmation bias on our part. You also don't feel that Rick Beato has even come close to adopting his burden of proof. Yes? Do I have it right?
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You feel that Rick Beato is guilty of creating click bait content, and is engaged in unsupported hyperbole when it comes to his assertion that John Williams is the most well known musical artist in history. You also feel that those of us who support his claim are simply part of his fan club, and are looking for validation for our existing views - a classic case of confirmation bias on our part. You also don't feel that Rick Beato has even come close to adopting his burden of proof. Yes? Do I have it right?
Yes, more or less. Although there could be other reasons for why you’re all supporting Beato’s claim. Those were just a couple of suggestions.
Ok, I offered that as a gesture of respect for your position - which I didn't think you were offering in return. Something that drives me crazy is two people talking past each other. Obviously I was able to accurately sum up your position, as I was actually paying attention to what you wrote. I didn't feel like you were really "listening" to what I (and others) were saying, so are you able to extend the same courtesy and steel man my / our position in return?
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Well, John, I’ve read through all your posts, and they’re almost exclusively adulations heaped upon Mr. Beato. In general. No comment on his actual claim, other than that he apparently has ‘earned’ it. So I would need to hear your specific take on the claim first, to know your position.
I'm not referring to his claim, which I never addressed directly. I even agree it's a bit hyperbolic, but I also think it can be defended - effectively.
My issue was your characterization of Beato and others here.
The fact that you see my posts as just "adulations heaped on Beato" indicates to me that either a) I am a poor communicator, or b) you haven't been reading my contributions charitably.
That's the sticking point for me. I happen to think I am a very effective communicator, but hey, ultimately that's for others to judge. I was making a larger overall point, one I would like to make sure is understood.
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Posted: |
Jul 29, 2024 - 3:01 AM
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By: |
Maarten
(Member)
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Thor, I understand your point about the clickbait- title "... the most well-known musical artist in history...". It's hyperbolic form is a phenomenon of our time, I think. Unnuanced, black or white oneliners to get people's attention and to prevent them from losing it: you find them everywhere, especially on social media. Sensational statements are often used to lure people in. Statements with the words "the most ...in the world/...of all time" are easy to put out but impossible to prove scientifically. You see GOAT-videos everywhere. They are often superficial, very subjective and easy to make.
I think however that Rick Beato didn't make this video to serve purely as clickbait. In the video he is looking back on previous videos in which he talked about comparing the popularity and influence of the Beatles vs. Taylor Swift, for example, a discussion he sees as ridiculous, as he says in the Williams video. I think within that light, he just wanted to say: hey, you know what: if you DO want to designate someone as The Biggest, it could actually be none of the always talked about pop icons, but filmcomposer John Williams! He obviously has a lot of respect for the man and just wanted to make us realise how well-known JW is, or at least his work.
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Posted: |
Jul 29, 2024 - 3:26 AM
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By: |
Thor
(Member)
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Yes, I know, but I think he solved it clumsily. Both by using the hyperbole and by not really having any kind of deep arguments for it in the video. He was more like "hey, my daughter likes it, so that means it crosses generations!", "hey, it doesn't matter if you're in Asia or Europe, people will recognize this!", "hey, his music goes to the emotional core of a scene" (as if that doesn't apply to a great many film composers). It comes off more like one of those informal pub table chats we all have any given day of the week. All of that is fine, and there is no arguing Williams' position in popular culture. What I found highly annoying was the whole exaggeration of it, blowing it up to the ludicrous "most well-known ever" bit and the casual way of backing up said claim. But apparently, it's just me.
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I lose Beato when he gets to the Jurassic Park theme – famous, yes, but not known to everybody. But his point, which he acknowledges not everybody willl agree with, is not arrived at haphazardly.
The Jurassic Park theme is definitely as much known as Star Wars or E.T., at least from the generation who saw the film as kids in the early '90s onwards. The movie is a touchstone for a generation of people younger than the one who grew up with Star Wars and Indiana Jones and the theme has turned into something almost mystical for many of them--when Williams visited J.S. Bach's tomb at the Thomaskirche in Leipzig a few years ago, when he was in the nave about to leave, the church's organist played the Jurassic Park theme, to which apparently he said "Now, I can die."
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Part of my point is if you follow Beato's videos and understand this one in the context of the others, it makes perfect sense - the groundwork for many of his points is laid in the other videos. And I'd argue his is a truly informed opinion. And as others have said, he calls back to those videos right at the top.
Did he lay out a formally structured argument for his claim on this particular video? Nope. But the bones of one are there, and in the context of his work.
This is why I tried to lay out Beato's bona fides and shared some other videos that demonstrated what I was talking about. On Facebook we have a series of other film composers sharing this video and making several similar if not identical points to mine.
You know, I even agree with Thor that the title is a bit hyperbolic and clickbaity. And I know that that's the way the game is often played on YouTube, as you need some way to get heard above the noise.
At the same time, Beato brings real musical education and analysis to YouTube. Hence the other musicians and composers coming to his defense.
I asked Thor several times now to steel man my points, I still really wish he'd do that. I got this real sense we were talking past each other, so I took the time to make sure Thor felt like I was fairly representing his point of view. To me, a willingness to truly understand an opposing view is the only way forward in a legit discussion, even if - perhaps especially if - you vehemently disagree.
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Well, I wasn't aware I had wandered into the Rick Beato Fan Club where every crazy claim is taken as the ultimate truth...
I suppose it's thrilling to have one's niche interest validated in some way, which is why so many of you are in 100% agreement with Mr. Beato's claim.
This may be the most supercilious thing you've ever posted.
If Beato was offering his praise of Zimmer, maybe some folks would be more receptive.
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This whole issue reminds me of a time when I was studying philosophy in university. There was this one guy, pre law (figures) who would hold up the lectures with the most inane and self serving questions. I asked my prof why she allowed him to derail discussion so often and whether it bothered her. She replied "he's intoxicated by his own self importance". 'nuff said.
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I think critics of this video are missing the point. Discerning viewers understand that Beato's video title is provocative to garner attention. The world operates in absolutes these days more than ever, especially on-line. The value of his video is not proving or disproving his claim, but to consider the far reaching impact of a film composer on pop culture and the world. The accolades on this thread are celebrating this fact, not the claim Williams is the most popular artist in history. the fact that Beato has a tremendous understanding of music both in terms of theory but also its impact in history and society gives him some currency, even if it's not an absolute truth.
Thor, for all your vaunted intellectualism, I would have expected you to see the intent of this video rather than get stuck on semantics.
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