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Jon and David,
Please email me at:
GrypthypeThynne at Yahoo dot com
Regarding Leonard Rosenman's Second Violin Concerto.
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Posted: |
Oct 13, 2007 - 6:48 PM
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By: |
Jon A. Bell
(Member)
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[I do think people can try to camouflage all sorts of genuinely crappy art by saying "it was supposed to be satirical!")
(although it's tough to escape the feeling that, at his core, Paul Verhouven is kind of a sick mofo), but Robo II was just garbage, IMO, and I'm not changing my opinion of that.
Something about this awful music brings out the best in these posters!
One thing I seem to recall is that Verhouven (sp) witnessed some seriously nasty stuff as a kid during WWII, and some people have speculated that he´s been trying to exorcize some of these demons in his films. Ordinarily I hate this kind of academic subtext examination, but it does offer a bit of food for thought. (And when some crew members working on the original Robocop questioned Murphy´s death scene as being nastily sadistic, PV´s response was, ´If Murphy is going to be resurrected, he has to suffer crucifixion first´ -- or words to that effect.)
-- Jon (on vacation in Valparaiso, Chile -- a seriously funky city!)
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Posted: |
Oct 13, 2007 - 7:49 PM
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By: |
Warlok
(Member)
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If Spielberg does it its part of an important dramatic work. Ditto Scorcese. If Verhoeven does it its gratuitous.
The villains were being villainous. Lends import to the effort to stop them.
As for Frank Miller/Paul Verhoeven/Irwin Kirschner somehow riding anti-corporate coat-tails, again, if Ridley Scott does it its high art... . Lets leave that comparison argument however. Do corporate interests direct the course of world affairs, or even just American affairs? Yes. Why do people object therefore to a fictionalized extension of that reality to the near future? Hits too close to home?!? Frankly, and as I`ve commented before, the societal commentary found in Robocop and Robocop 2 *used* to be laughable absurdities - as time goes by they become more and more merely records of modern broadcasting and politics. You don`t laugh so much anymore watching this.
The strive to privatize, the corruption of governmental institutions, the destruction of middle classes... this ain`t fiction anymore! And the far-sighted portrayal of that future was good, solid, entertaining sci-fi.
My opinion.
"ROOOOO-BO-COOOOOOP!"
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Posted: |
Aug 1, 2008 - 10:27 AM
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By: |
Alex Klein
(Member)
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I felt the need to bump this thread. I must have missed the discussion when it first came out; nice thread. Btw, does anyone know the reason why Poledouris wasn't approached for the sequel? Was it because the director wanted to bring in his collaborator (Rosenman)?
For me nothing can beat Poledouris' original take on the film and character, so my vote goes for Basil's masterpiece. As for Rosenman's work, the little I remember of it was good, but again, never close to Poledouris'. As for the films, the first is a classic, and the second one is quite a mess. I'd have to watch it again, but the first film seemed to balance all the important ingredients: satire, corruption, violence and humanity. The second one seemed to overemphasize the violent content (i'm never offended by such a thing, but when it's not necessary it just looks plain silly).
Alex
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Terrible score by a guy with his head so far up his own arse-I remember reading the Starlog article when he laid into every other (then) contemporary composer to promote himself.
For me, the makers of the sequel totally misread the intentions of the original and focussed on the violence without any of Verhoeven's wit.
Shame Verhoeven fell into his own trap before he left Hollywood and turned out hack work like Hollow man & Showgirls.
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Basil, you are a condescending pillock.
I'm as entitled to my opinion as the next man and based on my nationality you make utterly erroneous and racist comments.
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I've been inspired by this thread to pull this CD off the shelf after goodness knows how many years, and I was actually surprised by how much I enjoyed it. Sort of ends with a bit of a whimper, though, and it is a bit short (30:20 on my player display) but it's good, aggressive music.
This and Michael Gibbs' HARD-BOILED score were the first CD purchase I ever made.
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Posted: |
Aug 3, 2008 - 8:27 AM
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By: |
Joe E.
(Member)
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When I first saw this movie in the theater in 1990 it didn't actually strike me as being notably more graphically violent than the first; both are far enough beyond most other movies in their depictions of gore and infliction of physical pain and suffering it seems to me like pointless quibbling to draw some distinction between the two and say this one is tolerable but this one goes too far. Both of them seemed pretty "hard" to me, and I've honestly always been surprised at the way in which so many people are able to enjoy the first yet find the second unacceptably sadistic and mean-spirited, but of course I recognize many obviously do, going from their comments here and elsewhere; I just don't personally understand it.
In 1990, pretty much the only thing I didn't like about this movie was Rosenman's score. The score struck me as mostly inappropriate, heavily recycled from his own (completely different in tone) Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home, and often just plain bland in a TV movie sort of way when it wasn't reminding me of Kirk trying to bring back George and Gracie to the 23rd century. I still enjoyed the rest of the movie, and saw it twice in theaters, but the score dampened my enthusiasm for seeing it any more than that, and I haven't watched it since it left the big screen. I seem to recall reading shortly after its release of some behind-the-scenes turmoil that had resulted in some script messiness compared to what it could/should have been, but I don't remember the details and without having ever had another version of the movie to compare with the one we got, I had only the release version to judge and I have to say it worked for me - at least when I was in my early twenties, anyway, and with the exception of Rosenman's score.
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The great stop-motion scenes with the robots sold this movie to me. I felt like a kid watching it. I like the score, but it pales compared to it's predecessor. And yes, the movie has a hard, ugly edge to it.
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Posted: |
Aug 3, 2008 - 10:54 AM
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By: |
Joe E.
(Member)
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Comparing this score to Total Recall is like comparing Hanson to The Beatles.
Considering the importance of The Beatles in modern music and the fact that they've secured themselves as musical giants - your statement makes absolutely no sense.
One of the last things they had a friend at Juliard discet in her music theory and appreciation course - after they did Mozart and Wagner and Tuscanini - was the song "Yesterday".
So do you not think Total Recall is a great score, then, worthy of being likened to the Beatles?
Or did you read the comparison differently from me? I read it as saying "RoboCop2 is to Total Recall as Hanson is to the Beatles" - a not-so-great Rosenman score and a less-than-great pop act, Hanson, being compared to a towering classic of a Goldsmith score and one of the most legendary, influential, highly-regarded and beloved pop acts in history, the Beatles. It seemed clear to me Ka-razyfilmscorefan's intent was to diminish the standing of Rosenman's RoboCop 2 relative to Goldsmith's Total Recall, not to diminish that of the Beatles relative to that of Hanson, the Goldsmith score or the Rosenman one, but perhaps I made a mistake...
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Posted: |
Aug 3, 2008 - 11:12 AM
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By: |
Joe E.
(Member)
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Ah, fair enough.
For the record, though I characterized them as less-than-great, I don't actually think Hanson is particularly bad - quite the opposite, in fact. I think they're good at what they do; it just isn't for me.
I'll also note that except for main title (which I have on a Varèse compilation), I haven't heard Rosenman's RoboCop 2 since I saw the movie 18 years ago (man, was it that long ago?!), and never independently, outside the film context; it's quite possible I'd think more highly of it now, and I probably should give it another chance someday (though I think if nothing else it would still remind me far too much of Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home for its own good).
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