 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Gents ....
Ed's info is very interesting. Here's a guy who mixed sound and worked in post-prod for years, and is a fund of knowledge on all the very stuff people here are supposed to be afficionados of. Isn't his input welcome?
No-one knows whether there are as yet stereo masters to be found, and if there should prove to be some, then that would be no slight on Mr. Townson, who has put in all the effort to release what he can. This must all look very silly to outsiders.
I defeat my own purposes by saying that many will be interested in this release, and they might turn up here.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
 |
Posted: |
Aug 7, 2010 - 6:57 PM
|
|
|
|
By: |
Ed Nassour
(Member)
|
Gents ....
Ed's info is very interesting. Here's a guy who mixed sound and worked in post-prod for years, and is a fund of knowledge on all the very stuff people here are supposed to be afficionados of. Isn't his input welcome?
No-one knows whether there are as yet stereo masters to be found, and if there should prove to be some, then that would be no slight on Mr. Townson, who has put in all the effort to release what he can. This must all look very silly to outsiders.
I defeat my own purposes by saying that many will be interested in this release, and they might turn up here.
Thank you Bill.
Look, no one on this forum desired more to have the complete score to "Spartacus" from the best sources available than I did. It's a score we've all looked forward too.
If Robert inquired and that's what he was given, so be it. At least he got it released. For decades all we've had is the official truncated soundtrack plus various boots with very marginal sound.
I guess I was expecting the same sort of release "Cleoptatra" received which meant all the music was from the stereo masters with excellent sound. After enjoying "Raintree County" and "Mutiny on the Bounty" in glorious stereo, it was a major disappointment to discover only the Decca dubs were found for the stereo material, and with the complete score, that it came off mono dubs.
Listening to the film's soundtrack on the DVD makes it all the more difficult for me. I just ran the film yesterday. I don't have the new blu-ray version, just the older Criterian DVD. The sound on it is superb.
As far as people hearing things from 'someone' about the whereabouts of masters, I can understand how frustrating that must sound since we hear lots of things that don't materialize. The rumor mill runs amok. But some things I've heard have turned out to be true. I'm always open. I don't automatically dismiss what I hear.
But more importantly, I believe there's a lack of civility among a handful on this forum and it's troubling. Calling someone names never strengthens a position. It merely comes off as a display of bad manners.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
On the DVD, John Wiiliams says that composers in Hollywood who preceeded North, Rozsa, Waxman and Herrmann were composers steeped in the "European tradition" . The European Traditions means what? Because if it means what I think it means then Williams is incorrect in adding Benny's name to that list. Steiner would have been a name I would have expected before Herrmann's.
Herrmann was born in the United States, went to High School in New York and prowled the dusty music shops along Skid Row with his little buddy Jerry Moross, searching for unheard music to perform, music, one would expect, to have been written here in America.
Forget his style, I'm not even talking about that, because I believe he completely trashed the "European tradition" in Citizen Kane and The Devil and Daniel Webster- two very early examples of a Modern American tradition, a tradition he was acutely aware of and performed on his weekly radio shows on C.B.S. for years before ever going to Hollywood.
But European tradition, no, I beg to differ. Not Benny. And I do like the DVD very much. I wish it could have been done just a few years ago- how cool would it have been to hear Bernstein, Goldsmith and Raksin relating stories about North-
and still had North himself to speak live on camera.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
On the DVD, John Wiiliams says that composers in Hollywood who preceeded North, Rozsa, Waxman and Herrmann were composers steeped in the "European tradition" . The European Traditions means what? Because if it means what I think it means then Williams is incorrect in adding Benny's name to that list. Steiner would have been a name I would have expected before Herrmann's.
Herrmann was born in the United States, went to High School in New York and prowled the dusty music shops along Skid Row with his little buddy Jerry Moross, searching for unheard music to perform, music, one would expect, to have been written here in America.
Forget his style, I'm not even talking about that, because I believe he completely trashed the "European tradition" in Citizen Kane and The Devil and Daniel Webster- two very early examples of a Modern American tradition, a tradition he was acutely aware of and performed on his weekly radio shows on C.B.S. for years before ever going to Hollywood.
But European tradition, no, I beg to differ. Not Benny. And I do like the DVD very much. I wish it could have been done just a few years ago- how cool would it have been to hear Bernstein, Goldsmith and Raksin relating stories about North-
and still had North himself to speak live on camera.
If you ever visit the 'Herrmann Society' and the 'Talking Herrmann' forum, you'll often see long dissertations from Bill Wrobel and others who like to analyse Herrmann's influences. Herrmann was a ferocious self-confessed Anglophile and pioneered English music, premiered many English composers' works in the USA. There are Russian and French influences in his work. We're talking about a TRADITION here, not a birthplace. He was steeped in Ives etc. too, but Ives was very European-influenced in his own way.
I take your point that he took this into a very American form of expression. In that respect, he was like North, taking the past and reinventing it in an American way, and he approved of good jazz, though some claim he didn't. But that's true of Waxman who also was 'steeped in Europe'.
But his earlier scores show so MANY hats that you can't pigeonhole him. He was though, very deliberately steeped in European music. North was more consciously trying a uniquely 'American' form of expression. Herrmann worked with Copland too, but had no 'political' agenda like North to give expression to all forms of American culture.
Also, I don't see that he 'trashed' the European tradition. He used it ironically in the two films you mention, but irony was already part of that European tradition. He revered it too much to ever do that.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: |
Aug 7, 2010 - 10:48 PM
|
|
|
|
By: |
Ed Nassour
(Member)
|
[North was more consciously trying a uniquely 'American' form of expression. Herrmann worked with Copland too, but had no 'political' agenda like North to give expression to all forms of American culture.
North's music was rooted in jazz. I remember reading a story in the Tony Thomas book "Music For the Movies" that tells of the time North was living in the Soviet Union in the 1930s. North heard a recording of Duke Ellington's "Mood Indigo" and burst into tears. So much was his longing for America and it's music that merely hearing the Ellington piece brought about a flood of emotion.
According to the book, while growing up, North would go hear concerts by Paul Whiteman, Coon Sanders and Ted Weems. He gravitated towards jazz which tended to permeate into many of his varied scores.
There's even a slight jazz influence in his score for "Spartacus."
No question that North, Herrmann, Goldsmith, Elmer Bernstein and especially Leonard Rosenman tossed the conventional symphonic style of film music right out the window.
Although Herrmann thought of himself as being an 'anglophile' studying the works of various British composers, his bold, brash style, using unorthodox instrumentation, as well as his overt use of ostinato is definitely American sounding.
Going back and running "Spartacus" I was struck by how well his score works with the visuals, but more importantly with the sound effects. There are times in the film when the sound effects sound like an extension of the score. Truly remarkable. No wonder they spent nine months on the rerecording stage.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I agree they took the music to new places, but, whilst North used jazz, he also was very good at fugue style, like Rosenman.
It's impossible to 'throw it out the window' in its entirety. They BUILT on it and mixed it. There is almost nothing of jazz in Korngold (though he liked the saxophone in unusual places) but there'll still be Romanticism in Elmer Bernstein or Previn or Goldsmith.
But we need to remember that jazz influences, though unquestionably American, were picked up by Stravinsky, Debussy, many others. Certainly Herrmann spotted that. What was revolutionary in film-music usually had already happened in concert music.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: |
Aug 7, 2010 - 11:48 PM
|
|
|
|
By: |
Ed Nassour
(Member)
|
I agree they took the music to new places, but, whilst North used jazz, he also was very good at fugue style, like Rosenman.
Jeeze! That reminds me of the time I suggested to Lenny that he utilized the fugue style in his film scores. He shot me a look!
Of all the film composers I've known, only with John Addison and especially Lalo Schifrin could I bring up things I heard in there music, discuss it with them intelligently and get back a sense they understood what I meant and acknowledged it. With others such as Goldsmith, Rosenman, Raksin and Elmer Bernstein, the total opposite was the case. One day I asked Goldsmith how he managed to compose with such a varied style - with each score bringing about a new, fresh approach. I explained that his lack of a strong recognizable style was his strength as a film composer. He became quite perturbed saying he DID have a definite style and I must not be a good listener if I couldn't pick up on it! Go figure!
I have the feeling had I asked him why his music all sounded similar he'd have been equally pissed. That day he seemed generally pissed at everything. He was recording his score at Fox for the Mel Gibson film "Forever Young" and was making remarks on what a dump the scoring stage was and why didn't Fox have it cleaned up before he arrived.
I'll never forget the time I fist met him and then told him that I'd just gotten his score for "Freud" on LP. He went through the roof cursing Tony Thomas a blue streak for issuing it without his permission. Jerry had quite a temper.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
"studying the works of various British composers,"
. . .doesn't change the fact that Herrmann didn't write music in the late-Romantic style of the European tradition upheld by the likes of Steiner, Waxman and Korngold. Unless the film called for it, like 7th Voyage of Sinbad. He may have even thought himself an "Anglophile", I've read that too, but it is not a style of his, it's something that had a deep, personal resonance, but when it came time to write the music, it was American, modern and never what you expected.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: |
Aug 8, 2010 - 12:14 AM
|
|
|
|
By: |
Ed Nassour
(Member)
|
"studying the works of various British composers,"
. . .doesn't change the fact that Herrmann didn't write music in the late-Romantic style of the European tradition upheld by the likes of Steiner, Waxman and Korngold. Unless the film called for it, like 7th Voyage of Sinbad. He may have even thought himself an "Anglophile", I've read that too, but it is not a style of his, it's something that had a deep, personal resonance, but when it came time to write the music, it was American, modern and never what you expected.
I believe his affinity for all things English stopped short with his compositional style.
Benny drove a right-hand-drive Bentley, wore tweeds and even at times tried to affect a British accent as demonstrated on some unedited music tracks of scoring sessions I've listened to where Benny is overheard talking to the orchestra.
But once he became agitated, his Brooklynese twang delivered in a high pitched tone would emanate, giving himself away. On those occasions it must have been a humorous thing to witness.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: |
Aug 8, 2010 - 9:54 AM
|
|
|
|
By: |
Mark Ford
(Member)
|
OK now you guys have drawn me into the discussion of which has nothing to do with the actual music of Spartacus, but since it's out there and isn't going away I thought I'd throw in my 2 cents worth.
On Herrmann, I've never felt he fit neatly into any of the categories used in film music. He was entrenched in the Golden Age of film scoring as a time line, but what he wrote generally did not fall line in with his contemporaries in Hollywood. He really stood alone as a composer of his own classification. He was steeped in European tradition and championed contemporary American music coming greatly from his role as a conductor, but he didn't tend to write in the romantic/post romantic style of most other film composers of his day. Although it must be said his signature dark, low woodwind and brass sonorities and associated chordal progessions are right out of Wagner's Ring Cycle, a totem of the romantic period. Much of his composition is of a very modular, cell based motivic nature which was not a prominent trait of the romantic period style of music. The man is just too hard to easily pigeon hole I think.
On North, for me he was the key figure in the transition from what some call the Golden Age to the Silver Age, or perhaps better stated from the romantic/post romantic European tradition to the modernistic 20th century and jazz influenced American musical tradition. I've always maintained this as his greatest distinction as a film composer and was glad to hear the same echoed by the composers on the interview DVD in the Spartacus set. It all began to change with North as he lead the way for others such as Goldsmith and Rosenman to strike out in a new direction. Streetcar was the beginning of the change and Spartacus the beacon of its expression.
Anyway, to get back on the actual subject of the thread, I really enjoyed the interview DVD and unlike some could listen for hours to composers just sitting around and sharing their insights and personal feelings about film music. Some who watch it may become bored with it, but for me it was like sitting in on any number of rather informal sit down talks with composers and conductors I've been to over the years, especially in my days back in music school. I'm all about the music which I just can't help nor would I want to given my background. The material on the DVD is exactly the kind of stuff I crave for and only find here every so often, so I greatly appreciated its inclusion!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Yeah, Mark, I didn't mean to hijack your thread, just had to say something about what John Williams said on the Spartacus DVD that I didn't agree with.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
During this period [the 1990's], composer Jerry Goldsmith became well-known for physically smashing bootleg CDs presented to him to sign.
Herrmann did this too: he'd whack across them with a stick.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I wasn't one of those clamoring for this soundtrack only because I wasn't that familiar with it beyond the the old MCA CD...it (apparently) didn't make a huge impression on me back when I originally purchased it. All the multitude of threads that continuously popped up did raise my interest and I did do the pre-order thing as soon as it was announced.
Having giving the discs a run though I do understand the clamor now; it is an amazing score. The sound quality of the mono recordings is beautiful and I have little reservation in recommending this. Any nay-sayers who are lamenting the lack of a complete stereo representation should really buy it. I found it to be hardly much of a fault in all honesty and the single disc of remaining stereo tracks really isn't getting much of work out...that's how good the mono discs sound is to me.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
