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I have nothing to do with the discussion you refer to, and I have not offended or assaulted anyone and I'm not going to. I made a simple observation: Is this enough to deserve to be banned?
I didn't read anything that would justify "banning" or even silencing you. You sound like someone who would like to love the recording, but who has some reservations about it. Now I tried to hear what it is you object to but cannot confirm that I find a problem with the recording. I had a hearing test last year, so it’s not my ears per se, they are fine. Could be I am not trained enough to hear what bothers you. Obviously, the more attentively you listen to something, the more you hear details, the more you might be perceptive to something that bothers you. I always thought I'm sensible to audio flaws, because if there are glitches, they can bother me considerably, as all releases of PAPILLION before the Quartet release have.
In the case of ON DANGEROUS GROUND, I just find it difficult to assess what your exact problem with the recording is. The fault may be my inability to perceive it, I'm perfectly willing to concede that is a possibility.
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Posted: |
May 19, 2023 - 2:26 PM
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By: |
SchiffyM
(Member)
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People hear differently. It's a function of many things, age being a prominent one. A very good friend of mine (my age) is a concert violist, and he had to return two new televisions to Best Buy because they made a humming sound that was torture to him, but which nobody he knew could hear. Obviously, there is the whole "yanny or laurel" thing that went viral about five years ago.
So JB Berg, I do not doubt your sincerity. Neither do I doubt the sincerity of anybody at Intrada or on this board who doesn't hear it (which I believe to be everybody else).
I would only say, and I mean this in the kindest way possible, that if only one person hears this, I'm not sure it needs to be "fixed." But I do regret that the experience for you is compromised, since for me, it is wonderful.
Perhaps because when I was a teenager, I used to edit super 8 films on a little moviola, I can see things that are in only one frame of film that most people can't seem to. I guess I trained myself that way. In college, I would notice an errant frame in something on television and my friends would think I was insane until I managed to freeze the frame and show them. (Which wasn't easy on a VCR, but I was determined!) But since I was the only person I knew who was bothered by these frames, I couldn't fault them for not fixing it.
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Posted: |
May 20, 2023 - 3:24 AM
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By: |
JB Berg
(Member)
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People hear differently. ...
So JB Berg, I do not doubt your sincerity. Neither do I doubt the sincerity of anybody at Intrada or on this board who doesn't hear it (which I believe to be everybody else).
I would only say, and I mean this in the kindest way possible, that if only one person hears this, I'm not sure it needs to be "fixed." But I do regret that the experience for you is compromised, since for me, it is wonderful.
SchiffyM, this is a very good point, shareable because it is also the only logical way out of the controversy - at this point really useless - without questioning anyone's good faith.
I admit that the idea of having hearing from X-Men tickles me, but in reality I have found that I am not the only one to hear the discussed defect.
But this really doesn't matter, at this point: I absolutely don't want to rekindle the discussion.
I understood that among the participants in this thread I'm almost certainly the only one who has noticed the problem, and I'm fine with that.
If the defect won't be fixed because no one between the people who could fix it has sensed it, I'll get over it.
I can live peacefully even if that handful of tracks of ON DANGEROUS GROUND release haven't reached the level I would have expected. Over time I will get used to listening to them without paying too much attention to their slightly dull sound.
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Posted: |
May 20, 2023 - 12:01 PM
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By: |
davefg
(Member)
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I have always had great admiration and respect for the production staff of Intrada. After all, I have been on board at their side - so to speak - since their very first beginnings, since the first edition of Red Dawn, and since then there are no more than 3 or 4 titles that I have not purchased. This is just to say how much it pains me, at this moment, to write what follows.
As an admirer and supporter of their initiatives, I gladly entered the new project dedicated to Herrmann and I looked forward to the passage of the time necessary to finally be able to listen both scores, and ON DANGEROUS GROUND returned to its magnificence.
In front of the amazing beauty of the score, its reconstruction is detailed and accurate to the point of maniacality, the performance of the orchestra is powerful and vibrant, Stromberg's conducting is faithful, energetic, passionate, and the sound grip has all the credentials to finally perform the miracle of making us listen again to this jewel as it deserves to be heard.
That said, I was literally stunned to discover that not everything worked properly in the operation. And it also amazes me that no one talks about it, as if there is a deliberate desire not to mention the proverbial elephant in the room.
I refer to that handful of cues in the part dedicated to ODG, which unfortunately also include wonderful moments such as "Pastorale" and especially "Hunt Scherzo", in which the sound appears crushed, muffled, muted. Probably something went wrong in the mixing phase. Who can say?
I do not have the technical skills to say what may have led to this disappointing result, but I cannot pretend not to hear it. The sound defect is evident both when I listen to headphones and when I let the music come out of my first class HI-Fi system. You can hear it listening to the CD, as well as Spotify mp3s and HIRES samples from other providers.
I tried to come to terms with it, I told myself to try to ignore it, but there is nothing to do. Of course, it's still better than hearing the poor and torn sound of the previous Film Score Monthly edition. However, we are far from the perfection that was legitimate to expect from this long-awaited new production. Such a shame.
Sorry folks to bring this up, but I am hearing the same thing as JB Berg. Listening to the album on *Spotify only* as part of a Herrmann re-recording odyssey. Definitely heard / noticed a difference in sound quality, compared to other tracks mentioned by JB Berg on the album. Heard no other differences in sound quality between tracks like this on other Herrmann re-recordings I heard today: Jane Eyre, The Day the Earth Stood Still or The Snows of Kilimanjaro.
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Can I ask — how many people hear this problem that Mr. Berg says the CD has?
I don't. I'm curious who else does.
Cheers
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People hear differently. It's a function of many things, age being a prominent one.
And not just age but how we process sound psycho-acoustically.
Sorry, this will get technical!
It's easier to make my point talking about sight.
Everybody thinks they see exactly what is in front of our eyes.
We do not. Seeing is constructed in the brain. Our eyes feed snippets of information and the brain synthesizes those incomplete scraps, and fills in the gaps from past learning and expectation.
Plus, the moment we experience as "now" is actually an amalgam of things that happened between one tenth and one half a second ago, which is why we have no accurate way to discern what happened first when two things happen within half a second of each other.
This, by the way, is why you shouldn't speed on the road: because anything that can happen in less than half a second can happen before you've seen it.
Professional elite drivers learn to drive by learning ideomotor responses driven from the amygdala, because waiting for the visual cortex to create an image to respond to is too slow.
(That's what people mean when they experience driving on instinct.)
This is also why optical illusions happen, and can be caused, including both positive and negative hallucination.
Plus, when we remember, we think we remember exactly what happened.
We don't. Every time we remember, we have to fill in gaps, and the gap fillers we create becomes part of the memory, distorting the memory.
So, now we have sight that is fallible and memory which is fallible.
To demonstrate both points, find a popular demonstration of a man in an ape suit walking across the stage while people's attention is directed to a ping-pong content on the same stage, and nobody sees it until it is replayed and pointed out; and read about the experiment about how people's memories of a car accident are changed by asking questions like, "How fast was the red car going?" (when there was no red car.)
The thing is all our senses work like this.
One of the ways this manifests in audio is this:
People who grew up on vinyl have learned to psycho-acoustically filter out the pops and clicks, and enhance the sound, and, to them, play an LP and the audio sounds great.
Play the same vinyl to someone who has never heard vinyl before and all they can hear is the pops and clicks and, to them, it sounds horrible.
To add to the complication, people who use their ears professionally are bound to develop a much greater acuity than those who don't.
Hence the story of the violinist who had to take that TV back.
Similarly, visual artists can tell the differences between two reds that are so close, the rest of us can't.
So, that's not to say that anomolies are or aren't there in this recording.
It's to say that our own psycho-acoustic filters are may also be a factor in making them more or less audible to us, hallucinated, or even completely inaudible to us.
Sorry to get a bit technical there, but we cannot ignore our learned psycho-acoustic filtering processes in this.
And the thing is, if you tell somebody something is there, they may start to see/hear it, even if it's not.
Human perception is weird like that, and illusionists like Derren Brown make careers out of exploiting that.
The only way to be objectively sure is too look at it with something like a spectral analyser.
Cheers
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https://youtu.be/f7CMw01LeUA
Dave Hurwitz said that it is great CD overall, but he also said that "Death Hunt" is problematic for him.
He said that this particular cue is performed absolutelly wonderful by orchestra and Stromberg but it sounds like it is recorded on lower volume than rest of score.
Overall he said it is wonderful album and strongly recommended for everyone.
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Boy these poor Herrmann Discs. Its either some kind of a bizarre almost imperceptible audio problem or its going to be those guys coming on here that claim there's an extra violin note on bar 32 of page 76 and that this needs to be corrected immediately!
I get it, that Herrmann was an amazing composer, but honestly I listen to any new CD I have maybe once or twice and then move on to the next one and will listen again in a year or two. How are you people able to devote so much energy to this nitpicking when there is so much OTHER music to move on to. Strange stuff.
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People hear differently. It's a function of many things, age being a prominent one.
And not just age but how we process sound psycho-acoustically.
Sorry, this will get technical!
It's easier to make my point talking about sight.
Everybody thinks they see exactly what is in front of our eyes.
We do not. Seeing is constructed in the brain. Our eyes feed snippets of information and the brain synthesizes those incomplete scraps, and fills in the gaps from past learning and expectation.
Plus, the moment we experience as "now" is actually an amalgam of things that happened between one tenth and one half a second ago, which is why we have no accurate way to discern what happened first when two things happen within half a second of each other.
This, by the way, is why you shouldn't speed on the road: because anything that can happen in less than half a second can happen before you've seen it.
Professional elite drivers learn to drive by learning ideomotor responses driven from the amygdala, because waiting for the visual cortex to create an image to respond to is too slow.
(That's what people mean when they experience driving on instinct.)
This is also why optical illusions happen, and can be caused, including both positive and negative hallucination.
Plus, when we remember, we think we remember exactly what happened.
We don't. Every time we remember, we have to fill in gaps, and the gap fillers we create becomes part of the memory, distorting the memory.
So, now we have sight that is fallible and memory which is fallible.
To demonstrate both points, find a popular demonstration of a man in an ape suit walking across the stage while people's attention is directed to a ping-pong content on the same stage, and nobody sees it until it is replayed and pointed out; and read about the experiment about how people's memories of a car accident are changed by asking questions like, "How fast was the red car going?" (when there was no red car.)
The thing is all our senses work like this.
One of the ways this manifests in audio is this:
People who grew up on vinyl have learned to psycho-acoustically filter out the pops and clicks, and enhance the sound, and, to them, play an LP and the audio sounds great.
Play the same vinyl to someone who has never heard vinyl before and all they can hear is the pops and clicks and, to them, it sounds horrible.
To add to the complication, people who use their ears professionally are bound to develop a much greater acuity than those who don't.
Hence the story of the violinist who had to take that TV back.
Similarly, visual artists can tell the differences between two reds that are so close, the rest of us can't.
So, that's not to say that anomolies are or aren't there in this recording.
It's to say that our own psycho-acoustic filters are may also be a factor in making them more or less audible to us, hallucinated, or even completely inaudible to us.
Sorry to get a bit technical there, but we cannot ignore our learned psycho-acoustic filtering processes in this.
And the thing is, if you tell somebody something is there, they may start to see/hear it, even if it's not.
Human perception is weird like that, and illusionists like Derren Brown make careers out of exploiting that.
The only way to be objectively sure is too look at it with something like a spectral analyser.
Cheers
I believe the operative word in this post is: Psycho . 
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https://youtu.be/f7CMw01LeUA
Dave Hurwitz said that it is great CD overall, but he also said that "Death Hunt" is problematic for him.
He said that this particular cue is performed absolutelly wonderful by orchestra and Stromberg but it sounds like it is recorded on lower volume than rest of score.
Overall he said it is wonderful album and strongly recommended for everyone.
Well, Hurwitz, IF he said that, should learn what happens in a recording studio. It wasn't recorded "lower" - if it's lower in volume than the other tracks then it happened in mastering.
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Can I ask — how many people hear this problem that Mr. Berg says the CD has?
I don't. I'm curious who else does.
Cheers
Around 10 across three boards, here, Intrada, JWFAN. You may not hear anything, but you can see the difference on the spectrogram: https://www.jwfan.com/forums/index.php?/topic/34610-bernard-herrmanns-the-man-who-knew-too-much-on-dangerous-ground-intrada-records-2022-kickstarter/page/3/#comment-1955435
And how many of those ten, IF there are indeed ten, read the post here first. THAT is the big question and I doubt anyone would cop to it. As I posted on the Intrada board, I've made my living with my ears for thirty-three years - I know exactly what "phasing" is and this is not "phasing" nor am I really hearing anything at all that's problematic. I suppose people hear what they hear and the second anyone starts in with the spectrograms I tune out. That's like the Blu-ray insanity with bits and bytes. Put these people in a blind test with the bits and bytes they wouldn't be able to see any difference at all or they'd guess wrong.
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