In film music, a composer who needs to score 2 minutes here, 3 minutes there, a fanfare here, a polka there etc. just can't reach the same as in a symphony or a string quartet.
Saying music is better because it's longer is silly. It can be more developed, more 'symphonic', perhaps, but mastering the small form is hardly any easier than the long one. Take Chopin, for instance, who is a staple of the piano rep for short pieces. His music certainly "reaches the same" for most people, even though much of it is dance music.
Exactly, not quantity but quality.
I guess it might be easiest to take a gander at the sheet music of, say, Strauss's Salome, and then at...oh, Williams' Empire Strikes Back. Obviously they're both terrific compositions, however the Strauss betrays a harmonic depth (not to mention a dazzlingly risk-taking spirit both compositionally and orchestrationally) that is so far advanced of the Williams as to be that of a college graduate compared to a high school junior.
That said, as I believe was mentioned earlier, the vast majority of film scores simply don't require that kind of compositional depth (and in fact such complexity would more often than not negatively impact what's going on onscreen). Which underscores the genre as overall (perhaps necessarily) not-concert-music. Rozsa's Violin Concerto, Bernard's Symphony, Bach's Brandenburg Concerti, etc. are the latter.
Now, that doesn't mean there aren't musical treasures found throughout film land (the really great guys in the genre often were hyperaware of adding things connosieurs could appreciate; for example, next time one chooses to listen to Alfred's high concept scores like Black Swan and Son of Fury, take heed of the masterful yet often subtle use of rubato, extreme dissonances often blending in perfectly with the higher tempo pieces, improvised-sounding cadenzas, and tricky harmonic twists).
Saying music is better because it's longer is silly.
Hopefully, I never said that.
It can be more developed, more 'symphonic', perhaps, but mastering the small form is hardly any easier than the long one. Take Chopin, for instance, who is a staple of the piano rep for short pieces. His music certainly "reaches the same" for most people, even though much of it is dance music.
I also never said that short cues couldn't reach people.
A composer who scores a film is not free and cannot developed his themes, motifs, variations etc. the same way he can with another form in a unified whole.
It's that that he can't reach, so we probably both agree.
A composer who scores a film is not free and cannot developed his themes, motifs, variations etc. the same way he can with another form in a unified whole.
Yes, and Korngold and Herrmann did even much better with a constant flow.
You didn't get my point.
None of them are shaped like Beethoven's ninth or Mahler's sixth.
One could construe that as meaning shape determines advanced musical content.
Maybe try reading my post above about Strauss and Williams, if you haven't already. Your arguments seem unhelpfully abstract, and you keep having to inordinately explain them, which might say something about your arguments' validity.
Maybe try reading my post above about Strauss and Williams, if you haven't already. Your arguments seem unhelpfully abstract, and you keep having to inordinately explain them, which might say something about your arguments' validity.
No offense or disrespect intended.
English is not my mother tongue, and I don't see what is so abstract.
Even Royal S. Brown was dismissive of Star Wars, claiming it "set back an interest in film music" (which is ludicrous, when SW actually inspired legions of people to start listening to film music -- and rekindled an interest in more symphonic scoring in Hollywood).
Don't have the particular Fanfare issue handy, but wasn't Brown referring to the effect Star Wars had on film music itself - not the interest in or fandom surrounding the art form?
The wild success of Star Wars dictated that every sci-fi/fantasy/adventure picture to follow had to have a large-canvas, symphonic, swashbuckling score - just like the films of 40 years prior (and regardless of how appropriate that sound might be). As you say, it 'rekindled' symphonic scoring in Hollywood but I believe this is the exactly the 'setting back' that Brown was referring to.
I also think he may have mentioned on several occasions that Williams' immense craft made him one of the few composers who could effectively pull off this type of writing.
The wild success of Star Wars dictated that every sci-fi/fantasy/adventure picture to follow had to have a large-canvas, symphonic, swashbuckling score - just like the films of 40 years prior (and regardless of how appropriate that sound might be). As you say, it 'rekindled' symphonic scoring in Hollywood but I believe this is the exactly the 'setting back' that Brown was referring to.
Although Morricone’s Humanoid score avoided this and for a film that was the poorest imaginable re-tread of Star Wars he wrote an electro-baroque masterpiece.
Thanks for sharing this, as I had no idea Korngold had written that.
Speaking of Korngold, he also wrote operas before fleeing Germany. One in particular, Die Tote Stadt, is being produced more and more often. The premiere of his last opera, Die Kathrin, was scuttled at the last minute by the Nazis because he was a Jew. That prompted his coming to the USA. Here is a gorgeous aria from the opera sung by the great Reneé Fleming.
I have known Alfred Newman for more than 25 years.
Must be pretty cold and dusty company
Thanks for sharing this, as I had no idea Korngold had written that.
Speaking of Korngold, he also wrote operas before fleeing Germany. One in particular, Die Tote Stadt, is being produced more and more often. The premiere of his last opera, Die Kathrin, was scuttled at the last minute by the Nazis because he was a Jew. That prompted his coming to the USA. Here is a gorgeous aria from the opera sung by the great Reneé Fleming.
Now that John Williams and STAR WARS are regularly played in concert, we face the same problem as with classical music.
Always the same music played.
I would prefer a program with THE COWBOYS and THE REIVERS, or JANE EYRE, or CLOSE ENCOUNTERS OF THE THIRD KIND, or BORN ON THE FOURTH OF JULY and JFK.
And preferably substantial suites specially thought for the concert, possibly with new arrangements to make them more musical (like the coda in the concert version of the "Shark cage fugue" from JAWS).
And I would also prefer not to have the same composers played over and over again, and especially not always (or almost always) the Hollywoodians ones, as it is even here in France.
There's a lack of culture and interest in music in general, including film music, which has always amazed me.
I am thinking of a French book, that claims to be a guide ("Guide des compositeurs de musique de films") which even doesn't mention Philippe Sarde (and many others), because of the "Big Mac" culture.
Don't get me wrong, there is a great American culture, and I also like Big Macs, but when you only eat Big Macs, there's something wrong, you can't be healthy.
I would prefer a program with THE COWBOYS and THE REIVERS, or JANE EYRE, or CLOSE ENCOUNTERS OF THE THIRD KIND, or BORN ON THE FOURTH OF JULY and JFK.
Except for Born on the 4th of July, I've heard all of those performed at the Tanglewood concerts I've attended. Although in recent years the programs have, unfortunately, been leaning more towards the "crowd pleasers".
Even Royal S. Brown was dismissive of Star Wars, claiming it "set back an interest in film music" (which is ludicrous, when SW actually inspired legions of people to start listening to film music -- and rekindled an interest in more symphonic scoring in Hollywood).
Don't have the particular Fanfare issue handy, but wasn't Brown referring to the effect Star Wars had on film music itself - not the interest in or fandom surrounding the art form?
The wild success of Star Wars dictated that every sci-fi/fantasy/adventure picture to follow had to have a large-canvas, symphonic, swashbuckling score - just like the films of 40 years prior (and regardless of how appropriate that sound might be). As you say, it 'rekindled' symphonic scoring in Hollywood but I believe this is the exactly the 'setting back' that Brown was referring to.
I also think he may have mentioned on several occasions that Williams' immense craft made him one of the few composers who could effectively pull off this type of writing.
Yes, exactly. Royal's issue was never with the quality of the music in Star Wars (which he often liked very much) but rather that the approach — which was pretty retro when Star Wars came out — became a fad and was applied regardless of whether the movie deserved it or not. As an example, it meant that for some time, there was less experimentation within a genre like science fiction, which had formerly been notable for its experimentation.
This is not to say that there weren't unusual scores being produced at the time, but whereas in the 70s they could have been more common and mainstream, by the time we got to the 80s, those were outliers.
This is, of course, a reflection of how the industry as a whole moved at the time.
Royal would often praise very traditional Williams scores even for films he disliked if he felt the approach was warranted (e.g. Hook). But he also really liked it when Williams would go off in different directions (e.g. Sleepers).
he also really liked it when Williams would go off in different directions (e.g. Sleepers).
This goes for me to some degree as well. Though I adore the Jaws duo, Superman, JP I am at times even more deeply admiring of Family Plot, Jane Eyre. In fact I listen to all of the above more than I listen to anything else by John (this might seem weird, being that I'm a Wagnerian, but I just never particularly liked the SW scores. So shoot me.)
This goes for me to some degree as well. Though I adore the Jaws duo, Superman, JP I am at times even more deeply admiring of Family Plot, Jane Eyre. In fact I listen to all of the above more than I listen to anything else by John (this might seem weird, being that I'm a Wagnerian, but I just never particularly liked the SW scores. So shoot me.)
Same here, I listened to the Star Wars Trilogy Sony album a lot in the early 90s when it was issued but almost never the OST.
The concert versions made by John Williams are much more musical. I actually don't remember the OST albums, but the RCA releases left me cold (even the Arista box-set), probably because of the hot mastering.
About Family Plot, there's an excellent recording of the End Credits by Charles Ketcham and the Utah Symphony Orchestra on Varèse Sarabande :
I was very disappointed by the OST while I had waited it for years, but again, because of the hot mastering of Erick Labson.
