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The score that immediately jumped to mind for me is Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid. Love the movie, but the score seemed completely out of place. As delightful as the song, "Raindrops Keep Falling On My Head" is, it dragged the movie to a screeching halt. IMHO, Spider-Man 2 made much better use of the song.
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Posted: |
Mar 20, 2020 - 11:12 AM
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By: |
Thor
(Member)
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Wow, John.
Geez, Thor, talk down to people much? So sorry our *on topic* discussion here personally offends you. 
Not in the slightest; that's a 'strawman' fallacy. But I'm a sucker for being specific, nuanced and talking within the same parameters. I think it's crucial to mention that 'great films with bad scores' and 'great movies with unfit scores' are two very different things.
Lopatin can channel Vangelis all he wants, that says nothing about whether it's appropriate or not. Williams could channel Mozart for a scene in a film and the fact that it's Mozart doesn't make it fit the onscreen action.
The Vangelis thing was just an introduction, since it bears mentioning when talking about this score. I talk about the score's purpose in the following sentences, which you conveniently omitted. It has to do with the jewel's allure (a Vangelis-type sound is the perfect way to capture that, btw), a psychological mechanism that fuels the entire film. It's so strong, in fact, that it completely overpowers the energetic action we're seeing on-screen. I thought it was absolutely brilliantly done. There's something fatalistic about it.
RE: the overlapping voices at the beginning seemed like a self conscious attempt to create aural chaos, rather than one that seemed to organically come out of the situation. It just seemed overdone and so deliberate that I was aware of being manipulated, which is what turned me off. Once the movie settled in and we had just a normal dialogue scene I was able to get into it. It also really bothered me that no matter if someone was talking at a normal level or shouting, all the voices were mixed at the same level. In other words, someone shouting was at the same volume level as someone talking normally. This really surprised me since it was an Atmos mix, and rather than envelope me it constantly distracted me with its artificiality - as did the score.
I can sorta understand the frustration with a few of the more energetic scenes, as in the office scene towards the end where all the plot lines seem to converge. I was alienated by that as well. But it's very much an intentional way of letting the audience feel the chaos of the situation on a visceral level.
I've already said my piece on LADYHAWKE (in the thread previously linked to). Fantastic score all around, and I'll shout my defense of that score on the rooftops untill the day I die!
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Ladyhawke is a good and interesting point in this topic.
Some would argue it's not even a good film. I disagree. I love it. Did from the minute I saw it in the cinema when it was released.
But the score even confounds me.
On the one hand, I love it for its 'dare to be different' approach and I also like the tunes. And don't forget, for all the Alan Parsons Project rock drive music, there's plenty of traditional dramatic and romantic orchestral music in the film too.
On the other, I wonder how the film would play with a John Williams or Jerry Goldsmith or James Horner score.
Would I enjoy the film more...or less. I'll never know.
I like the film primarily for the story and the characters, which drew me in emotionally.
And the film looks gorgeous.
It's a conundrum I'm happy to live with.
We almost found out, as Gerard Schurmann was going to score it.
http://rejectedfilmscores.125mb.com/supposedly.html
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I have already seen many posts on LadyHawke which was the first Picture/Score that came to mind, so all I can say is I agree. The romantic theme is sweeping and beautiful and I love it, but the jarring descent in to 80s prog rock takes me out of the film every time. I can't stand it. The last time I saw it on a beautiful Dolby Stereo 35mm film print at the Egyptian Theatre in Los Angeles (part of the Rutger retro), it made me wince and giggle a little. So that's my take on that.
The other score that comes to mind is John Addison's dreadful music for Hitchcock's Torn Curtain. I know the film has it's lovers and haters. I am a lover and am keen on the performances and some of the really great shock scenes... that being said The final chase is an abomination to Hitchcock's canon. The ridiculously cheesy "suspense" music sounds like something out of a silent comedy from the 1900s. I remember hearing a recording of the intended Bernard Herrmann score and thinking Hitch was just an imbecile for not using it. But I do know he was under immense studio pressure with this particular shoot, so he might have been tied down on this choice...but what do I know?? lol.
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Posted: |
Mar 20, 2020 - 5:29 PM
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By: |
Ray Worley
(Member)
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This topic has come up before and it's always fraught with peril. You're always going to be stepping on someone's toes, because no matter how objectively terrible a film or score is, someone will love it and defend it to the death. And conversely, films and scores that are universally praised will have some curmudgeonly detractors.
I've seen thousands and thousands of films and been collecting soundtracks since I was 12, but I can only think of a very few that I really disliked the score enough that it took me right out of the film. I've seen plenty that I thought, "Well, I'm not buying that soundtrack" because I didn't care for the music. That generally does not mean it was an unfit or bad score, just not musically my taste. DUNKIRK and JOKER come to mind. Worked fine or even great for the film, but I'm not going to listen to them stand-alone. And I've seen plenty that I thought the score was weak or unremarkable, but not ruining the movie.
I'm racking my brain but the only films I can recall thinking, "OMG, this music is so out-of-place and is ruining the film for me" are THE SOCIAL NETWORK, MARIE ANTOINETTE (2006), and the infamous LADYHAWKE. Other films with "adventurous" and "avant-garde" or "unconventional" scores haven't bothered me. I just find those to be particularly egregious misfires.
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And therein lies the problem for many of the posts here -- people are conflating their own personal evaluations of a score, with a score's suitability. The former is a legitimate, subjective evaluation, the second is a more objective, analytical evaluation (either based on knowledge about the director's intentions, or a fairminded interpretation of what it is the music is trying to do). A score can fit a movie like a glove even if you dislike it for whatever reason.
This... is where you messed up. It's all subjective, subjectively speaking. Why fear opinion, even your own?
And what part of Moroder's Scarface, in Di Palma's mind, isn't supposed to equate to the WOM WOM WOM of music, especially the shootout aftermath?
PS: I "appreciate" what Alan Parsons did for Ladyhawke... well, more for the romantic interludes than the fights, but altogether a pleasant experience. And the brilliance of Dragonslayer was my introduction to North, which led me to the brilliance of The Sound and the Fury.
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Ladyhawke is a good and interesting point in this topic.
Some would argue it's not even a good film. I disagree. I love it. Did from the minute I saw it in the cinema when it was released.
But the score even confounds me.
On the one hand, I love it for its 'dare to be different' approach and I also like the tunes. And don't forget, for all the Alan Parsons Project rock drive music, there's plenty of traditional dramatic and romantic orchestral music in the film too.
On the other, I wonder how the film would play with a John Williams or Jerry Goldsmith or James Horner score.
Would I enjoy the film more...or less. I'll never know.
I like the film primarily for the story and the characters, which drew me in emotionally.
And the film looks gorgeous.
It's a conundrum I'm happy to live with.
It's the "Sanic Redux Conundrum" of our times.
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Posted: |
Mar 21, 2020 - 3:03 AM
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By: |
Thor
(Member)
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This... is where you messed up. It's all subjective, subjectively speaking. Why fear opinion, even your own?
Well, true, there is subjectivity involved in both, of course. But one is less subjective than the other. Analyzing something, and trying to figure out the purpose or intention of a score in a film, is a more objective act, relatively speaking, than merely saying that you like it or not.
And what part of Moroder's Scarface, in Di Palma's mind, isn't supposed to equate to the WOM WOM WOM of music, especially the shootout aftermath?
I'm afraid I don't understand this sentence. Could you rephrase?
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This... is where you messed up. It's all subjective, subjectively speaking. Why fear opinion, even your own?
Well, true, there is subjectivity involved in both, of course. But one is less subjective than the other. Analyzing something, and trying to figure out the purpose or intention of a score in a film, is a more objective act, relatively speaking, than merely saying that you like it or not.
But how much "less" can art (yes, Morder's work is art, calm yo'self) be taken subjectively before anyone of varying repute decrees it to be objective? Analytics are nice and all, but in the end, art boils down to a subjective framework of interpretation. Anything trying to be more than that is one lording an opinion over another via factors that no one agreed to make immutable law. It's not rocket science... or any kind of science at all...
... subjectively speaking.
At the risk of destroying my already nonexistent credibility by quoting this butt nugget of a bon mot...
And what part of Moroder's Scarface, in Di Palma's mind, isn't supposed to equate to the WOM WOM WOM of music, especially the shootout aftermath?
I'm afraid I don't understand this sentence. Could you rephrase?
After Tony took his bloody swan dive into the indoor pool, the musical phrasing truly does sound like Peter Frampton bailed and just shouted WOM WOM WOM over and over again in his vocalizer. What I'd like to know is what was going through DiPalma's mind when he approved this?
DiPalma: Giorgy Piorgy, that's perfect! Don't change a thing! I can feel the spilling over of the circus clown ca- I mean the tragedy of the moment!
Production assistant: But sir, we have a recording of Morricone's diarrhetic toots on library tape...
DiPalma: GIT DAT CHIT OUTTA HERE! This... THIS... is better than anything those hacks could ever compose!!!
Production assistant: ... there was also a girl-
DiPalma: (uses the Force to snap the PA's throat to his hand) WHAT GIRL????
PS: Moroder's disco music, such as it was (and I'm in the "for disco" category), also did not help one bit. Gloria Gaynor is spinning in her future grave now.
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