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 Posted:   Sep 29, 2005 - 3:52 AM   
 By:   Reeler   (Member)

I'm gonna have to support the Horner fans somewhat. During his peak years he was the most emotionally satisfying scorer around. That is why he has a fan base. If someone wants to deconstruct FOD and why we shouldn't be listening to it, I guess go for it; but for my money it fulfills me more than anything. When I read the reviews at Amazon and read how FOD changed the inner souls of these people, there is no amount of text by the naysayers that can change that. Why Horner even said he wanted to move back into more "slow" sounding scores. Because slow scores overall are more affecting than its opposite. He was no doubt criticized for that same thing in Aliens, and I guess honestly looking back Glory isn't quite as perfect as I'd hoped it be. But I do genuinely appreciate Horner's peak years, and if that means being lumped into supporting a plagiarist, then so be it.

I do however agree with the naysayers somewhat, too. I think Horner's last 10 years or so has been rather dry. When FilmTracks said his career now is based on old recurring themes, that is disappointing in the least. Horner is not gifted with variety. To me he is the Noel Gallagher (Oasis) of pop rock. He has been sued a few times for plagiarism, but Noel can deliver a pretty good pop song. With Horner, I'm not quite sure what it is? For me he just turned out to be the most satisfying emotionally of his period. Fans and naysayers will probably find this an insult when I say Horner is a "block" composer. He borrows heavily from others and lumps things together. The end results just seem to make me cry more often than his peers. Even if he never gets back on track in the future, I will always hold him up amongst the best for that.

 
 
 Posted:   Sep 29, 2005 - 4:44 AM   
 By:   sergioleone   (Member)

Red HEAT:

"Main Titles"="Cantata para la RevoluciĆ³n" from Prokofiev

 
 
 Posted:   Sep 29, 2005 - 9:20 AM   
 By:   moviescore   (Member)

It's all VERY simple.

Go on, use any quotes of classical music you want. It's cool. It gives the score a touch of class, in my opinion.

But tell the audience what you're doing. "Incorporates themes from 'Alexander Nevsky' by Sergei Prokofiev". What's the big deal - nothing to be ashamed of! On the contrary, here is a composer who obviously loves classical music and finds room for it in his own film scores.

I love James Horner's music, and I love the way he incorporates classical works into a film score. I simply can't understand why he doesn't realise that crediting these classical works would make his work on these films much more impressive.

Perhaps he is following some kind of rule of the game. John Williams never credited Gustav Holst on his Star Wars score, although there are several bars lifted from The Planets....

mikael

 
 
 Posted:   Sep 29, 2005 - 1:14 PM   
 By:   Reeler   (Member)

I suppose there is a fear of being sued anyhow. I don't know? I guess saying Horner "lumps" pieces of his compositions isn't accurate because it makes him sound like he hasn't on ioda of talent. There are a lot of highly noticeable similarities, and I guess I enjoy them despite the fact they are present and not given credit. But you are right, it would enhance them as well as his credibility.

 
 
 Posted:   Sep 29, 2005 - 1:48 PM   
 By:   workaluk   (Member)

The reason is because no one does it...


And please don't tell me they don't,because you know they do,in fact you know that i know that you know that they know they do it!!!!smile


Nuno Cunha


Horner Rules....

 
 
 Posted:   Sep 29, 2005 - 6:37 PM   
 By:   bondo321   (Member)

I just saw FLIGHT PLAN, and it was one of the most unoriginal Horner scores I've heard in awhile.

BUT...

I enjoyed it. It was a repeat of ideas heard in The Pelican Brief, Ransom, and A Beautiful Mind, but it worked perfectly. The ticking woodblocks weren't out of place at all, and the mother/daughter theme was quite appropriate.

 
 
 Posted:   Sep 29, 2005 - 7:12 PM   
 By:   Thomas Pynchon   (Member)

I simply can't understand why he doesn't realise that crediting these classical works would make his work on these films much more impressive.


Because it would expose him?

Horner's reputation is one he brought upon himself. If he had any respect for the genre he is composing for, he would never resort to borrowing from classical entries or even repeat his own oeuvre 'till it is saturated. Horner is a formula composer, you get what you buy. Why even bother composing with a fresh and original view when your formula earns you a paycheck which matches those of A-list composers?

I consider his tactics to be similar to doping for sports; You achieve the same goal but you are cheating along the way.

 
 Posted:   Sep 29, 2005 - 8:51 PM   
 By:   Hadrian   (Member)

It's all VERY simple.

Go on, use any quotes of classical music you want. It's cool. It gives the score a touch of class, in my opinion.

But tell the audience what you're doing. "Incorporates themes from 'Alexander Nevsky' by Sergei Prokofiev". What's the big deal - nothing to be ashamed of! On the contrary, here is a composer who obviously loves classical music and finds room for it in his own film scores.

I love James Horner's music, and I love the way he incorporates classical works into a film score. I simply can't understand why he doesn't realise that crediting these classical works would make his work on these films much more impressive.

Perhaps he is following some kind of rule of the game. John Williams never credited Gustav Holst on his Star Wars score, although there are several bars lifted from The Planets....

mikael


Exactly! I totally agree. What better way to introduce others to great classical music and Horner is one of the best arranger/orchestrators around.

Too bad it takes threads like this one to educate others to the fact that the music they enjoy may not have been written by the ones they thought. I for one would be interested and would want to investigate the music of these other composers.

If anyone enjoys Horner's music from the early 80s until the early 90s, they will really enjoy the music of Prokofiev because it is he above all others who Horner has borrowed from. Horner does have good taste.

 
 
 Posted:   Sep 30, 2005 - 12:07 AM   
 By:   Melvin Stephens   (Member)

Oldsmith, thanks for having the fortitude to at least acknowledge as much.

'To be fair, John Williams reused one of his themes for Towering Inferno in Earthquake (or was it vise versa?). And whenever a new Star Wars came out, one of the tracks wound up being nearly re-used in another score (ROTS music is in WOTW, etc.).'

 
 Posted:   Sep 30, 2005 - 1:43 AM   
 By:   Scott McOldsmith   (Member)

Oldsmith, thanks for having the fortitude to at least acknowledge as much.

'To be fair, John Williams reused one of his themes for Towering Inferno in Earthquake (or was it vise versa?). And whenever a new Star Wars came out, one of the tracks wound up being nearly re-used in another score (ROTS music is in WOTW, etc.).'


Well, facts are facts and I have the albums to prove it, but you're welcome. smile

In reality, none of this bothers me. I grew up watching old TV shows and every episode music was tracked from previous scores. Then I'd notice new composers rerecording previous work. So, when I hear, say, Horner reusing something, it rolls off my back. Sometimes I'm happy because this version sounds better. And I don't listen to enough classical to spot every borrowing. With Williams, I feel the same way.

I'm pretty fricking laid back about the whole thing. smile

 
 
 Posted:   Sep 30, 2005 - 10:41 AM   
 By:   sergioleone   (Member)

The four notes theme is in Superman (John Williams), in theme "Lex Luthors Lair"

:-)

 
 
 Posted:   Sep 30, 2005 - 7:30 PM   
 By:   Melvin Stephens   (Member)

'I grew up watching old TV shows...' Interesting, how topics can venture off into other areas, and you discover little things. Two weeks ago, I listened to Bernard Herrmann: The CBS Years. I remember as a kid, hearing those cues repeated over and over etc., in so many other shows.

 
 
 Posted:   Oct 4, 2005 - 12:30 PM   
 By:   Pelham123   (Member)

Has anyone mentioned Clear and Present Danger (the bit at James Earl Jones's funeral) - that's a lift from Shostakovich's 5th Symphony.
But the really cheeky (actually audacious and outrageous) one recently was Troy, which lifted, practically note for note, the Hosanna section of the 'Sanctus' movement from Benjamin Britten's War Requiem. Boosey and Hawkes (Britten's publisher) took out an action against him; I think it's ongoing.

I think Horner is actually a fine musician and has written some superb scores. He often comes in as a replacement composer, with the last minute pressures, (Troy a good example) but I don't know why he insists on being so obvious when referencing other music (or aping the temp track). He has the talent to avoid it.

 
 Posted:   Oct 4, 2005 - 3:08 PM   
 By:   spielboy   (Member)


But the really cheeky (actually audacious and outrageous) one recently was Troy, which lifted, practically note for note, the Hosanna section of the 'Sanctus' movement from Benjamin Britten's War Requiem


Dont tell me it's the track "TROY" from the disk, when they enter the city !! Cause that's the best part for me, and if that's also a rip off....

 
 
 Posted:   Oct 4, 2005 - 3:30 PM   
 By:   Oblicno   (Member)

wow, this is great, it's leading me to whole new places in classical music. I bought Alexander Nevsky after i read a thread earlier in the year re: horner robbing stuff, and it's ace. Lead me to gold, boyos!

 
 
 Posted:   Oct 4, 2005 - 3:49 PM   
 By:   Port   (Member)

LEGENDS OF THE FALL (Theme) - an old traditional. Some years ago, I heard a Jazz track from the forties and surprise! Note by note LEGENDS OF THE FALL!



 
 
 Posted:   Oct 4, 2005 - 3:55 PM   
 By:   Tall Guy   (Member)

Has anyone mentioned Clear and Present Danger (the bit at James Earl Jones's funeral) - that's a lift from Shostakovich's 5th Symphony.


Hi Tomcat. I've mentioned this so many times on so many different threads that I'm bored with seeing myself tap it out, so thanks for saving me the trouble.

I actually thought I HAD posted your message when I glanced at it, only to realise that it was a whole different person. (You are a different person, aren't you?)

How about a bit of meat in your profile? (and I'm not talking Whiskas)

Regards
Chris

 
 
 Posted:   Oct 4, 2005 - 6:46 PM   
 By:   Pelham123   (Member)



Hi Tomcat. I've mentioned this so many times on so many different threads that I'm bored with seeing myself tap it out, so thanks for saving me the trouble.

I actually thought I HAD posted your message when I glanced at it, only to realise that it was a whole different person. (You are a different person, aren't you?)

How about a bit of meat in your profile? (and I'm not talking Whiskas)

Regards
Chris


Yeah sorry Chris, I thought as much but hadn't spotted anything in this thread. Anyway, I'm new.

As for more on me in the profile, I'll just have to remain mysterious...

 
 
 Posted:   Oct 4, 2005 - 9:55 PM   
 By:   markgso   (Member)

Has anyone mentioned Clear and Present Danger (the bit at James Earl Jones's funeral) - that's a lift from Shostakovich's 5th Symphony.

Yeah, it's the same lift from the prequel, Patriot Games, that everyone has been mentioning. Horner calls it the "electronic battlefield" theme -- indeed, it's as though he downloaded it illegally via napster and straight into his score! wink

 
 Posted:   Oct 6, 2005 - 5:22 PM   
 By:   Mike Esssss   (Member)

I hope I'm not stepping on Mr. Fake's toes by reprinting this here, but Intrada's "Grand Poobah" had something to say in his ramblings that's relevant to this discussion.

10/4/05

Roger, our marketing director, says I'm James Horner's "biggest fan". Judging by what I read, Roger's got a point.

How can I ignore his lazy habit of copying himself? Isn't it a pretty big sin? Well, my defense is weak. I just ignore it. Actually, I remind myself of the company he keeps. Read on.

My favorite recorded score is SPARTACUS, North's masterpiece from 1960. But whole sections of it, including the main theme, come from a 1955 western he did called MAN WITH THE GUN. What's up with that? North did this a lot, too. DRAGONSLAYER, SHOES OF THE FISHERMAN, GOOD MORNING VIETNAM, many others. They all have entire cues in common. My favorite unrecorded score is Bernstein's KINGS OF THE SUN (1963). Though it never got an album, Elmer helped me out by putting a chunk of it into ZULU DAWN (1981), which did get one!

Newman's hallowed ROBE (1953) has hefty sections lifted right out of earlier things like HUNCHBACK OF NOTRE DAME and PRINCE OF FOXES. Even the equally hallowed Jerry Goldsmith gave us that gorgeous PAPILLON theme many years after first hiding it in an episode of THRILLER! Max Steiner must've been the ultimate king of recyclers! Hey, even the ever creative Lalo Schifrin liked a cue from his 1964 score to RHINO so much he used it again in a later effort titled A.D.

So I guess I don't really ignore Horner's sins.

I just remind myself what great company he's in!

 
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