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Posted: |
Sep 16, 2020 - 1:44 AM
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By: |
Grecchus
(Member)
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I actually find the THUNDERBALL score a bit too loud and tedious at times. At least the action cues are a bit frenetic - in the way that the GOLDFINGER score is only in the Dawn at Fort Knox cue. GOLDFINGER as a whole is more refined and pleasant to listen to.
But which one would win the toss of popularity by numbers, would you say out of interest? I mention this because some time ago, the Thunderball CD became sparse all over, and its price shot up to the highest value I've ever seen a Bond reach. I don't know how or why that situation developed, however, it was something of an eye-opener. Right or wrong, I automatically assumed Thunderball had a higher rated weighting than the other 'surrounding' Connery Bonds from the score perspective, at least. By your own comparison, could it be that people in general prefer the more edgy sound of Thunderball to Goldfinger?
By the way, if I had to pick and choose, I'd prefer Goldfinger to Thunderball for overall story, delivery and balance.
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I've never noticed any issue with the instrumental version of Goldfinger. I gave it another listen (on the expanded CD) the other day and it sounds fine to me. I probably have the LP somewhere but haven't heard it in decades.
Regarding Goldfinger vs Thunderball - I'd go with Goldfinger every time, both score and film. For me Thunderball the film is easily the dullest and least enjoyable of Connery's entries, even eclipsed by Never Say Never Again, and the expanded CD is frankly a chore to sit through (most times I've tried I've given up long before the end). I've always found the next three (Twice, Service, Diamonds) to be absolutely peak Barry-Bond and his four Roger Moore scores to be terrific as well, but Thunderball is the one that just doesn't work.
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Posted: |
Sep 16, 2020 - 2:37 AM
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By: |
MusicMad
(Member)
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I've never noticed any issue with the instrumental version of Goldfinger. I gave it another listen (on the expanded CD) the other day and it sounds fine to me. I probably have the LP somewhere but haven't heard it in decades.
Regarding Goldfinger vs Thunderball - I'd go with Goldfinger every time, both score and film. For me Thunderball the film is easily the dullest and least enjoyable of Connery's entries, even eclipsed by Never Say Never Again, and the expanded CD is frankly a chore to sit through (most times I've tried I've given up long before the end). I've always found the next three (Twice, Service, Diamonds) to be absolutely peak Barry-Bond and his four Roger Moore scores to be terrific as well, but Thunderball is the one that just doesn't work.
And I disagree with everything you've written!  For me, Thunderball is the best (i.e. most entertaining) JB007 film to date (multiple viewings), the score is my favourite (even above the fabulous other JB JB007 scores) ...
... and, whilst I don't know what went wrong, but the CD version of instrumental Goldfinger sounds rough. I know that the old 45rpm single sounded better (as did tte track on the 10th Anniversary compilation double album). It's mono - but that's not the problem - and I don't think it's distortion but it could be brickwalling (I think that's the term where the sound levels are so high there is no room for the top notes, etc.)
Mitch
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Posted: |
Sep 16, 2020 - 3:05 AM
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By: |
mortenbond
(Member)
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I actually find the THUNDERBALL score a bit too loud and tedious at times. At least the action cues are a bit frenetic - in the way that the GOLDFINGER score is only in the Dawn at Fort Knox cue. GOLDFINGER as a whole is more refined and pleasant to listen to.
But which one would win the toss of popularity by numbers, would you say out of interest? I mention this because some time ago, the Thunderball CD became sparse all over, and its price shot up to the highest value I've ever seen a Bond reach. I don't know how or why that situation developed, however, it was something of an eye-opener. Right or wrong, I automatically assumed Thunderball had a higher rated weighting than the other 'surrounding' Connery Bonds from the score perspective, at least. By your own comparison, could it be that people in general prefer the more edgy sound of Thunderball to Goldfinger?
By the way, if I had to pick and choose, I'd prefer Goldfinger to Thunderball for overall story, delivery and balance.
It`s not easy to say - as we do not know how many CDs were pressed for each individual title. If Goldfinger - based on the original 60s ratings were pressed in higher numbers it can explain the availability in compariaon to Thunderball. Also, Thunderball was more expanded - as the extra Goldfinger cues were already available.
Also with soundtracks - the overall popularity of the film has an impact on record sales. It`s not always the music that steers peple towrads buying the soundtrack. That said, both Goldfinger and Thunderball were almost equally popular films upon release.
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Posted: |
Sep 16, 2020 - 3:15 AM
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By: |
mortenbond
(Member)
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I've never noticed any issue with the instrumental version of Goldfinger. I gave it another listen (on the expanded CD) the other day and it sounds fine to me. I probably have the LP somewhere but haven't heard it in decades.
Regarding Goldfinger vs Thunderball - I'd go with Goldfinger every time, both score and film. For me Thunderball the film is easily the dullest and least enjoyable of Connery's entries, even eclipsed by Never Say Never Again, and the expanded CD is frankly a chore to sit through (most times I've tried I've given up long before the end). I've always found the next three (Twice, Service, Diamonds) to be absolutely peak Barry-Bond and his four Roger Moore scores to be terrific as well, but Thunderball is the one that just doesn't work.
There are issues with Thunderball. It is a bit long, especially during the underwater scenes. And Terence Young regretted that. The direction seems a bit sloppy at times, lacking the fine tuned elegance of Guy Hamilton`s Goldfinger. For instance, there is some very dodgy blue screen stuff in the end of the film, the film is sped up, etc. Also there are too many continuity errors. And when did that camera go from taking infra-red film underwater to becoming a geiger-counter? Q presented Bond`s watch as the geiger counter! I had a talk with Guy Hamilton about this once, and he agreed that Terence Young could be a bit too quick sometimes. `
Thunderball has a lot of charm, but is more dated than other films. In part at least. I love the Bahamas locations, Largo and his yacht, Barry`s music etc.
Mr. Kiss Kiss Bang Bang is a tremendous tune. It would have gone on to be a classic along the lines of Goldfinger and Thudnerball had it been the title tune.
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I agree, Mr. Kiss Kiss Bang Bang was a high quality, very carefully thought out song / theme.
Compared to Thunderball, which was pretty much thrown together at the last minute.
If the call hadn't come to replace Mr. KKBB, Thunderball would have been a more monothematic score, but I think it would have been better.
It would have had GOLDFINGER's laser-like focus.
(Clearly there are secondary themes and motifs, but one theme would have been dominant, as it was in GOLDFINGER.)
As it was, having to shoe-horn the new song, made Thunderball a duo-thematic score—a boon of sorts—but I sometimes think it would have been an even better score as a monethematic score focussed on the better and more intricately written theme.
Cheers
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The 2003 Thunderball CD contains every note from the 21 minute, 30th Anniversary suite, right?
Sorry to ask a remedial-class question, but as long as we're all here...
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Posted: |
Sep 16, 2020 - 7:34 AM
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By: |
MusicMad
(Member)
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... and, whilst I don't know what went wrong, but the CD version of instrumental Goldfinger sounds rough. I know that the old 45rpm single sounded better (as did tte track on the 10th Anniversary compilation double album). It's mono - but that's not the problem - and I don't think it's distortion but it could be brickwalling (I think that's the term where the sound levels are so high there is no room for the top notes, etc.)
Mitch
I'll tell you precisely what went wrong with the instrumental "Goldfinger:"
They took the mono-rechanneled-for-stereo master from the LP master, and collapsed it back to mono, creating phasing issues.
I have a stereo copy of the LP, and I hit the mono button on this track, and it is out of phase. Hit the mono button an it sounds like the CD version.
If they had used the actual mono master for the US mono LP, it would have sounded great. I also have a mono LP and the instrumental "Goldfinger" blows away the CD version.
Unless the cue on the double album 10th Anniversary was fake stereo (I can't recall but don't this was) then i don't think I've heard it in that form ... it was a 45rpm single release recording and back in 1964 mono for singles was probably the norm. You may be right, I was merely describing how it sounds to me, not having any technical information to fall back on.
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Posted: |
Sep 16, 2020 - 7:37 AM
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By: |
OnyaBirri
(Member)
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... and, whilst I don't know what went wrong, but the CD version of instrumental Goldfinger sounds rough. I know that the old 45rpm single sounded better (as did tte track on the 10th Anniversary compilation double album). It's mono - but that's not the problem - and I don't think it's distortion but it could be brickwalling (I think that's the term where the sound levels are so high there is no room for the top notes, etc.)
Mitch
I'll tell you precisely what went wrong with the instrumental "Goldfinger:"
They took the mono-rechanneled-for-stereo master from the LP master, and collapsed it back to mono, creating phasing issues.
I have a stereo copy of the LP, and I hit the mono button on this track, and it is out of phase. Hit the mono button an it sounds like the CD version.
If they had used the actual mono master for the US mono LP, it would have sounded great. I also have a mono LP and the instrumental "Goldfinger" blows away the CD version.
Unless the cue on the double album 10th Anniversary was fake stereo (I can't recall but don't this was) then i don't think I've heard it in that form ... it was a 45rpm single release recording and back in 1964 mono for singles was probably the norm. You may be right, I was merely describing how it sounds to me, not having any technical information to fall back on.
Completely understood. I was simply pointing out the difference in sound when you A/B the actual mono version and the rechanneled-stereo-folded-back-to-mono version.
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I've never noticed any issue with the instrumental version of Goldfinger. I gave it another listen (on the expanded CD) the other day and it sounds fine to me. I probably have the LP somewhere but haven't heard it in decades.
Regarding Goldfinger vs Thunderball - I'd go with Goldfinger every time, both score and film. For me Thunderball the film is easily the dullest and least enjoyable of Connery's entries, even eclipsed by Never Say Never Again, and the expanded CD is frankly a chore to sit through (most times I've tried I've given up long before the end). I've always found the next three (Twice, Service, Diamonds) to be absolutely peak Barry-Bond and his four Roger Moore scores to be terrific as well, but Thunderball is the one that just doesn't work.
There are issues with Thunderball. It is a bit long, especially during the underwater scenes. And Terence Young regretted that. The direction seems a bit sloppy at times, lacking the fine tuned elegance of Guy Hamilton`s Goldfinger. For instance, there is some very dodgy blue screen stuff in the end of the film, the film is sped up, etc. Also there are too many continuity errors. And when did that camera go from taking infra-red film underwater to becoming a geiger-counter? Q presented Bond`s watch as the geiger counter! I had a talk with Guy Hamilton about this once, and he agreed that Terence Young could be a bit too quick sometimes. `
Thunderball has a lot of charm, but is more dated than other films. In part at least. I love the Bahamas locations, Largo and his yacht, Barry`s music etc.
Mr. Kiss Kiss Bang Bang is a tremendous tune. It would have gone on to be a classic along the lines of Goldfinger and Thudnerball had it been the title tune.
To me Thunderball is all of the sophistication and style that Young brought to Bond combined with the scale that Hamilton gave it but without any of Hamilton's shtick. Similarly the score is a bridge from the over the top brass of Goldfinger to the murkier and more mysterious sound the Barry would move to for most of the rest of his career.
I'm not sure how Thunderball is more dated than, say, Goldfinger or Diamonds are Forever. I just prefer the way that it's dated, I guess.
I have to admit that when I want to listen to Thunderball I'll usually listen to the suite from the 30th anniversary. I know I'm missing some great stuff, but it's such a perfect compact hit of pure Bond.
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Regarding MKKBB and the last-minute title song:
I agree with those who think MKKBB is a superior song, and if it had remained over the credits, I think it would have deserved an Oscar nomination for song, not that the music branch would have agreed. And while I also agree that there was some some last-minute shoehorning of the title song in the score proper, I think Barry wrote the title song based on elements that were already in the score.
And, I'll add that the "Cafe Martinique" version of MKKBB and the lengthy instrumental version of Thunderball on the album are two of my very favorite Barry pieces, slow, seductive, and intoxicating.
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The 2003 Thunderball CD contains every note from the 21 minute, 30th Anniversary suite, right?
Sorry to ask a remedial-class question, but as long as we're all here...
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The 2003 Thunderball CD contains every note from the 21 minute, 30th Anniversary suite, right?
Sorry to ask a remedial-class question, but as long as we're all here...
I haven't done a forensic check, but I'm pretty sure it does.
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I haven't done a forensic check, but I'm pretty sure it does.
Thanks, Stephen.
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