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It's just a bit confusing because the film mix would have been pre-LP, which would have to mean that for the DISNEY release the engineers would have digitized the film masters and then COPIED the work on John Neal for recreating the LP presentation again.
Exactly. Disney recreated the album assembly from another element.
Which, if it's true, means that this Disney release would have had access to all the complete material since the masters were not assembled or recorded in the same order as the LP presentation.
So, in theory, somewhere on a computer system would be sitting all the original masters, digitized in high-res, waiting to be released complete.
I'm a bit skeptical about the idea that they used the original film masters - it's possible they're not talking about the first-generation masters that would have come straight out of the recorders upon capturing the signal from Tomlinson's mixing console. They might have instead extracted from the 4-track or 6-track masters used for the film prints of the movies, separate from the dialogue and sound effects tracks. Although I'm not sure how those masters were separated.
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Weren't the Disney releases rushed out to coincide with their takeover of the Star Wars IP? I would've assumed, especially given the very poor reception the mixes on those releases received, that the decision to remaster was an arbitrary choice rather than an opportunity to use better sources.
Also, I'm curious, and maybe not understanding something obvious, but in comparing versions, how do we know what Eric Tomlinson's original live mix sounded like?
It's confusing because in 2004, Sony released straight-reissues of the 1997 Special Edition / RCA Victor releases.
But in any event, chronologically, the SONY 2015/2016 release came out before the DISNEY 2018 remaster release. I don't know how or why Sony was involved in the first release - maybe they still had soundtrack rights.
In any case, these are the people who worked on the SONY 2015/2016 release:
Tom Laskey - director product development, Sony Masterworks
Patricia Sullivan - mastering engineer (mastered the prequel album releases when they first came out and handled their remastering for this)
Dann Thompson - recording engineer, Skywalker Sound
Leslie Ann Jones - director of music and scoring, Skywalker Sound
Shawn Murphy - recording engineer (Star Wars prequels and beyond)
And for the 2018 DISNEY release, I can at least confirm the following people continued:
Dann Thompson - recording engineer, Skywalker Sound
Leslie Ann Jones - director of music and scoring, Skywalker Sound
Shawn Murphy - recording engineer (Star Wars prequels and beyond)
To answer your Eric Tomlinson mix question, a lot of credit goes to Chris Malone for his incredible work "Recording the Star Wars Saga" which documents a lot of this in detail. Per John Williams' preference, Eric Tomlinson did live mixes of the recordings with very little-to-no post-processing for the original Star Wars trilogy, so that what came out of the mixing console and was sent to the recording machines represented the music exactly as Williams and Tomlinson preferred and as close to what was heard in the room at that time. Those masters would be the holy grails with the best quality, and would be as follows:
A NEW HOPE
- 35mm magnetic film masters
- 16-track tape master
THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK
- 24-track tape master
- 8-track tape master
RETURN OF THE JEDI
- 24-track tape master
- 8-track tape master
We can call these the "Tomlinson Masters (Gen 1)".
However from there, music editor Kenneth Wannberg edited, cut and looped parts of different takes from those masters to make the full version of the music as presented in the film. I don't know if Wannberg cut the original masters or if he was given copies to work with - I'm assuming the latter, in which case these could be called the "Wannberg Masters".
Further from there, 35mm and 70mm film masters would have been made with the music, sound effects, foley, and dialogue tracks. I don't know if one could extract just the music from these, but these could be considered "Dubbing Masters".
Finally, from Tomlinson's mixes, John Neal would have made his own set of masters for the original LPs, which featured an array of post-processing effects that pulled the sound of the music away from what was heard in the film. These would be the "Neal / LP Masters".
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Come on, can You REALLY hear such a big sound quality difference between 16 and 24 bit?
If one could or could not hear a difference in sound quality between 16 and 24 bit is completely irrelevant to the issue. Or rather, it amplifies the issue even more. If one cannot (easily/at all/readily/without much training) hear the difference between various offered formats, it becomes even more important to have accurate and reliable information when downloading the files.
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If one cannot (easily/at all/readily/without much training) hear the difference between various offered formats, it becomes even more important to have accurate and reliable information when downloading the files.
Exactly. The 'hear like dogs' thing is a cute way to broadly dismiss hi-res sound (though that applies to the kHz thing, not bit rate... I think, anyway) but even if there is truth to that, it does not change the fact that if one says the audio (not just the files) is hi-res, which, whether there is an official standard at not, should be recognized to at the very least exceed a CD standard to some degree in some way, then the audio -- not just the files, but the sound itself, had better be in at least one of the lowest forms of hi-res.
Anyone in the chain from engineer to distributor should care what the customers will get, as well as what the customers are being told they'll get, but whether they care or not, integrity needs to happen.
I do think that's hard to do. It's a difficult thing to check, and most of the people in this chain can't be, nor should they be, audio tech experts to the level which might be needed to be to verify this stuff. Having it verified by those who can should not be considered an undue burden. It's just basic quality assurance. It's due diligence.
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I just saw that SHAMUS and THE DON IS DEAD are available as high-res (96khz/24bit) downloads on Qobuz:
Qobuz have demonstrated themselves to be willing to charge a higher fee for a higher resolution file types containing the same CD quality music as their CD quality files contain. If you want to risk it, try one track and check it first, otherwise, the less expensive CD quality files are likely to sound excellent, as CDs have forever, and as these two (especially Shamus - man, that thing sounds nice!) do.
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I just saw that SHAMUS and THE DON IS DEAD are available as high-res (96khz/24bit) downloads on Qobuz:
Qobuz have demonstrated themselves to be willing to charge a higher fee for a higher resolution file types containing the same CD quality music as their CD quality files contain.
It's not Qobuz, but rather the labels that provide the files. Qobuz is getting the files from the labels, which is why it's always a good idea to check which labels provide the files. Never had a problem with files from Qobuz provided by legitimate labels such as Deutsche Grammophon, Decca, Ondine, BIS, ECM, etc. Now Intrada sells legitimate high-res files on Qobuz, however, SHAMUS and THE DON IS DEAD are NOT offered by Intrada, but by "Back Lot Music". Never heard of them, who are they? A bootleg label? Are those legitimate files? I am skeptical.
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I just saw that SHAMUS and THE DON IS DEAD are available as high-res (96khz/24bit) downloads on Qobuz:
Qobuz have demonstrated themselves to be willing to charge a higher fee for a higher resolution file types containing the same CD quality music as their CD quality files contain.
It's not Qobuz, but rather the labels that provide the files. Qobuz is getting the files from the labels, which is why it's always a good idea to check which labels provide the files. Never had a problem with files from Qobuz provided by legitimate labels such as Deutsche Grammophon, Decca, Ondine, BIS, ECM, etc. Now Intrada sells legitimate high-res files on Qobuz, however, SHAMUS and THE DON IS DEAD are NOT offered by Intrada, but by "Back Lot Music". Never heard of them, who are they? A bootleg label? Are those legitimate files? I am skeptical.
They are the official label of Universal Studios......
I'm fairly certain they kept the digital rights to the soundtrack.
So, NO they are not a bootleg label
Ford A. Thaxton
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Posted: |
Sep 14, 2021 - 2:23 AM
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By: |
Bus_Punk
(Member)
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Weren't the Disney releases rushed out to coincide with their takeover of the Star Wars IP? I would've assumed, especially given the very poor reception the mixes on those releases received, that the decision to remaster was an arbitrary choice rather than an opportunity to use better sources.
Also, I'm curious, and maybe not understanding something obvious, but in comparing versions, how do we know what Eric Tomlinson's original live mix sounded like?
It's confusing because in 2004, Sony released straight-reissues of the 1997 Special Edition / RCA Victor releases.
But in any event, chronologically, the SONY 2015/2016 release came out before the DISNEY 2018 remaster release. I don't know how or why Sony was involved in the first release - maybe they still had soundtrack rights.
In any case, these are the people who worked on the SONY 2015/2016 release:
Tom Laskey - director product development, Sony Masterworks
Patricia Sullivan - mastering engineer (mastered the prequel album releases when they first came out and handled their remastering for this)
Dann Thompson - recording engineer, Skywalker Sound
Leslie Ann Jones - director of music and scoring, Skywalker Sound
Shawn Murphy - recording engineer (Star Wars prequels and beyond)
And for the 2018 DISNEY release, I can at least confirm the following people continued:
Dann Thompson - recording engineer, Skywalker Sound
Leslie Ann Jones - director of music and scoring, Skywalker Sound
Shawn Murphy - recording engineer (Star Wars prequels and beyond)
To answer your Eric Tomlinson mix question, a lot of credit goes to Chris Malone for his incredible work "Recording the Star Wars Saga" which documents a lot of this in detail. Per John Williams' preference, Eric Tomlinson did live mixes of the recordings with very little-to-no post-processing for the original Star Wars trilogy, so that what came out of the mixing console and was sent to the recording machines represented the music exactly as Williams and Tomlinson preferred and as close to what was heard in the room at that time. Those masters would be the holy grails with the best quality, and would be as follows:
A NEW HOPE
- 35mm magnetic film masters
- 16-track tape master
THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK
- 24-track tape master
- 8-track tape master
RETURN OF THE JEDI
- 24-track tape master
- 8-track tape master
We can call these the "Tomlinson Masters (Gen 1)".
However from there, music editor Kenneth Wannberg edited, cut and looped parts of different takes from those masters to make the full version of the music as presented in the film. I don't know if Wannberg cut the original masters or if he was given copies to work with - I'm assuming the latter, in which case these could be called the "Wannberg Masters".
Further from there, 35mm and 70mm film masters would have been made with the music, sound effects, foley, and dialogue tracks. I don't know if one could extract just the music from these, but these could be considered "Dubbing Masters".
Finally, from Tomlinson's mixes, John Neal would have made his own set of masters for the original LPs, which featured an array of post-processing effects that pulled the sound of the music away from what was heard in the film. These would be the "Neal / LP Masters".
There was also the following little-known releases in 2016 (wish I’d known about it at the time I would have bought the reel to reel tape):
https://positive-feedback.com/audio-discourse/star-wars-comes-to-dsd-and-analog-tape/
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Now Intrada sells legitimate high-res files on Qobuz, however, SHAMUS and THE DON IS DEAD are NOT offered by Intrada, but by "Back Lot Music". Never heard of them, who are they? A bootleg label? Are those legitimate files? I am skeptical.
They are the official label of Universal Studios......
I'm fairly certain they kept the digital rights to the soundtrack.
So, NO they are not a bootleg label
Oh, great! Thanks for the info. That means the files should be legit and indeed what they claim to be. Qobuz does not do upsampling.
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I just saw that SHAMUS and THE DON IS DEAD are available as high-res (96khz/24bit) downloads on Qobuz:
Qobuz have demonstrated themselves to be willing to charge a higher fee for a higher resolution file types containing the same CD quality music as their CD quality files contain.
It's not Qobuz, but rather the labels that provide the files. Qobuz is getting the files from the labels....
Indeed they are not generating the files they sell, but that doesn't exonerate them from their own contributions to the problem. Qobuz sold Inchon as hi-res, specifically saying that it would sound better than CD, and charging extra for that. Their files contained CD quality audio. They were informed of this, provided the files, also caps of the data analyses, with the intention of helping them out. They responded, so they got the info, and did nothing. They didn't even check the files to verify, so they had a refund extracted from them, against their policy, because PayPal agreed that their sale was simply fraudulent, and their responses insufficient.
And as I post, they still charge extra for Hi-Res 96 khz 'Audio' (not file type) Quality on Inchon, something which does not currently exist. Great sounding CD audio is what's available, period, but they'll still sell you that extra audio quality for some extra scratch. For that, they are worth the warnings, and they, not Intrada, nor Back Lot Music, are accountable for their deceptions. The word middleman isn't big enough to cover their butts, nor does caveat emptor excuse their carelessnesses.
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I just saw that SHAMUS and THE DON IS DEAD are available as high-res (96khz/24bit) downloads on Qobuz:
Qobuz have demonstrated themselves to be willing to charge a higher fee for a higher resolution file types containing the same CD quality music as their CD quality files contain.
It's not Qobuz, but rather the labels that provide the files. Qobuz is getting the files from the labels....
Indeed they are not generating the files they sell, but that doesn't exonerate them from their own contributions to the problem. Qobuz sold Inchon as hi-res, specifically saying that it would sound better than CD, and charging extra for that. Their files contained CD quality audio. They were informed of this, provided the files, also caps of the data analyses, with the intention of helping them out. They responded, so they got the info, and did nothing. They didn't even check the files to verify, so they had a refund extracted from them, against their policy, because PayPal agreed that their sale was simply fraudulent, and their responses insufficient.
And as I post, they still charge extra for Hi-Res 96 khz 'Audio' (not file type) Quality on Inchon, something which does not currently exist. Great sounding CD audio is what's available, period, but they'll still sell you that extra audio quality for some extra scratch. For that, they are worth the warnings, and they, not Intrada, nor Back Lot Music, are accountable for their deceptions. The word middleman isn't big enough to cover their butts, nor does caveat emptor excuse their carelessnesses.
Don't know the story behind Inchon on Qobuz, but in my experience they respond very fast to any questions, feedback, or complaints.
However, they don't check files, they just sell what the labels give them. So if they sell Inchon as high-res without the files being high-res, it stll means someone gave them the files to sell as "high-res" file.
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Posted: |
Sep 14, 2021 - 8:02 AM
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By: |
thx99
(Member)
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Don't know the story behind Inchon on Qobuz, but in my experience they respond very fast to any questions, feedback, or complaints.
However, they don't check files, they just sell what the labels give them. So if they sell Inchon as high-res without the files being high-res, it stll means someone gave them the files to sell as "high-res" file.
IMO, there should be accountability on the part of the labels that supply the material, any intermediate company (if any) that disseminates the material to the various vendors, and the vendors themselves. And even after being put up for sale, the labels should verify that what's being sold by the vendors is equivalent to what they supplied the vendors directly or supplied the intermediate party. Again, IMO.
If Intrada produced true hi-res files of Inchon to Qobuz (or through an intermediate), then they should be upset that Qobuz is not selling those true hi-res files. If Intrada somehow didn't produce true hi-res files because of their workflow or the technical limitations of the recordings they started with, then the blame lies with them. But then Qobuz should catch them with some sort of QC evaluation, instead of taking the label's/intermediate's word on it.
I've posted before that I had a similar experience with HDTracks to that @W. David Lichty [Lorien] had with Qobuz. Despite the evidence I provided HDTracks regarding how a "hi-res" album they were selling wasn't truly hi-res, they rebuffed me with a boilerplate email putting the blame on the supplier/label and begrudghingly refunding my money, but then telling me that "hi-res audio may not be for you" (implying that I shouldn't buy from them in the future). To me, this is a huge cop out on HDTracks part.
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Posted: |
Sep 14, 2021 - 8:12 AM
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By: |
MichaelM
(Member)
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Qobuz sold Inchon as hi-res, specifically saying that it would sound better than CD, and charging extra for that. Their files contained CD quality audio. They were informed of this, provided the files, also caps of the data analyses, with the intention of helping them out. They responded, so they got the info, and did nothing. They didn't even check the files to verify, so they had a refund extracted from them, against their policy, because PayPal agreed that their sale was simply fraudulent, and their responses insufficient.
And as I post, they still charge extra for Hi-Res 96 khz 'Audio' (not file type) Quality on Inchon, something which does not currently exist. Great sounding CD audio is what's available, period, but they'll still sell you that extra audio quality for some extra scratch. For that, they are worth the warnings, and they, not Intrada, nor Back Lot Music, are accountable for their deceptions. The word middleman isn't big enough to cover their butts, nor does caveat emptor excuse their carelessnesses.
Didn't Intrada remaster Inchon from the original analog tapes for their latest CD release and then provide the 96/24 files to Qobuz? Are you saying they provided upconverted CD quality files instead? Why would they do that if they are the ones who created the hi-res masters in the first place and could easily provide the files?
Over the last two years I bought Hi-Res downloads from Qobuz of JUSTINE, THE TROUBLE WITH ANGELS, IVANHOE, INCHON, RIO CONCHOS, and now SHAMUS, THE DON IS DEAD and 'THE BURBS. They all sound wonderful, and to my ears there are variable degrees of improvement over the (already very good sounding) CDs. More punch in the bass, more detail in the highs, more natural-sounding strings. The most dramatic one was JUSTINE. Difference like day and night over the compressed, shrill Varese version (of the original LP).
Of course, the merits of hi-res music have been debated ad nauseam. Some people claim to hear a difference, some don't. Factors like personal hearing, quality of audio equipment and listening environment play a big part. Would the difference be noticeable when listening on earbuds or from the sound bar of a computer? Probably not. Bottom line is, if you're happy with CD audio or MP3, there's no reason to spend money on hi-res music.
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Don't know the story behind Inchon on Qobuz, but in my experience they respond very fast to any questions, feedback, or complaints. However, they don't check files, they just sell what the labels give them.
That's mistake one, and an irresponsible one. These are products which are not destroyed by being examined, like, say, a sealed in box Kenner Star Wars figure, where to check the figure, you have to ruin the packaging. They're files. They can be checked. If what you do is distribute them, it should matter to you that your customers aren't being swindled, even inadvertently. Spot check as the very least level of due diligence, but certainly look into things if you're given specific reason to consider a particular case.
So if they sell Inchon as high-res without the files being high-res, it stll means someone gave them the files to sell as "high-res" file.
Until they're told the audio isn't hi-res, and they're shown the data confirming this, and given access to the exact files they provided to check themselves. Once they know - and they do - they have no business continuing to promote the audio as having higher quality than it does, and charging extra for that missing higher quality. It no longer matters how they got only CD quality audio, what counts is that they know, and are still willing to bilk us. Intrada didn't do that. Back Lot Music didn't do that.
They own this.
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Didn't Intrada remaster Inchon from the original analog tapes for their latest CD release and then provide the 96/24 files to Qobuz? Are you saying they provided upconverted CD quality files instead? Why would they do that if they are the ones who created the hi-res masters in the first place and could easily provide the files?
No, I'm not saying any of that. I'm saying Qobuz sells 96/24 files containing 41/16 audio. They offer hi-res audio, not hi res files (containing whatever someone chooses to put in them). That's their language. It's no longer relevant how they got those files from Back Lot Music; that's what they sold me. They were given all they needed to confirm this, to say nothing of just having access to the files themselves if they wanted to do due diligence on the complaint (which they certainly should - who am I to take at my word?), and the wording on their site, and the files, remain unchanged. Three months later.
If Intrada remastered from analog, and that resulted in audio that reaches beyond the limits of CDs, it hasn't gotten to the customers. While I expect them to care (if they're even part of this chain - Back Lot Music seems to be relevant), I do not expect them to be sudden experts in a relatively new technology, so if something got downgraded while the audio was in their hands, I'm not sure they'd have a way to know. I guess I'd expect them to know a thing or two about CDs by now, because that's their primary business, but hi-res audio is new, and for their part, they released a CD set. Since hi-res audio in hi-res audio files is what Qobuz does, I do expect them to have a professional grasp on issues surrounding them, such as basic QCing.
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