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 Posted:   Oct 6, 2005 - 6:42 PM   
 By:   DeviantMan   (Member)

MIKLOS ROZSA can also be included in Horner's good company.

Even the great Bernard Herrmann did it, as Hitchcock complained about how closely JOY IN THE MORNING resembled VERTIGO in composition.

 
 Posted:   Oct 6, 2005 - 7:10 PM   
 By:   The Mutant   (Member)

That sound you just heard was Thor's head exploding from all the thread URLs he'll have to copy and paste.


LOL!

 
 Posted:   Oct 6, 2005 - 7:25 PM   
 By:   Ron Pulliam   (Member)

Doug Fake is a great champion of film music and a hell of a nice guy besides.

He truly IS a champion for Horner, but I have to point out about the "he's in good company" comment that the composers he cited were composing in a very different marketplace/mode/time.

They reused portions of scores because they never thought anyone would notice, outside a handful of astute, musically attuned moviegoers.

They never envisioned either the home video market or the golden age music releases we have today.

Hugo Friedhofer once worried over a short deadline for composing a score for "White Feather." Newman told him to reuse parts of the score he'd written for "Broken Arrow." Friedhofer was doubtful, but Newman said no one would ever notice. And that was the mindset then.

That has NEVER been the mindset during Horner's career.

Also, even if Newman or Rozsa or Steiner reused things from previous scores, it was because they were writing 90-110-minute scores and had already composed quite a bit of new music, new motifs and needed some quick fixes to add to other scenes. In Newman's case, I have often considered that he composed mostly new material for the theme of the film...for the psychological underscoring he did so well...and used previous themes to fill in action and picturesque scenes.

In most cases, Newman, et.al., reorchestrated, and often re-syncopated, borrowed themes -- dressing them up again like a set might be redressed from one film to another...to fit the theme/mood of the film that the music would now serve.

Horner, on the other hand, seldom bothers to disguise or re-dress his music. I can't tell you how many times I've been lifted totally out of one film because of music sounding exactly like it did in a pivotal scene of a different movie. "Searching for Bobby Fischer" did that to me no fewer than two times. Each time, I was yanked out of "...Fischer" and into "Field of Dreams."

It's most disconcerting. I don't feel that way when I hear such things in older films by master composers...mainly because the recycled music is seamlessly blended in with a lot of new stuff.

But that's my take on it.

Goldsmith never did that to me. Nor Williams, nor any of the current crop of Newmans. Nor Shore, nor Silvestri, nor Shire, nor Kamen, nor anyone else.

Just Horner.

 
 Posted:   Oct 6, 2005 - 7:35 PM   
 By:   Mike Esssss   (Member)


They reused portions of scores because they never thought anyone would notice, outside a handful of astute musically attuned moviegoers.


Hi Ron,

While I understand and agree with the larger point you're making, I honestly wonder if Horner (and Horner alone) doesn't feel the same way about this that the Golden Agers did. How else could you rationalize it? Surely he must be aware that he's doing it (even though he's said in at least one interview I've seen that he "tends to completely forget the music [he's] written for a film once it's done"). I have to think he's of the mindset that, hey, who's gonna notice? Among our community that might seem absurd, but I'd go a step further and say that he's probably right. Would your general moviegoer notice the similarities between BICENTENNIAL MAN and SEARCHING FOR BOBBY FISCHER? Probably not.

 
 Posted:   Oct 6, 2005 - 7:41 PM   
 By:   Ron Pulliam   (Member)

Well who the heck saw "Bicentennial Man"? big grin

The problem here is that he seems more repetitive than any other composer has ever been.

A lot of the blame is probably due to temp tracks being laid down before he scores. I can well imagine that if some of his music from a previous film is placed in a key segment of a new film, he thinks, "Well, that's mine. My work here is done. I don't have to score that scene."

But...maybe it's because Horner has proven he's so talented that I'm just more disappointed when he serves up rehashed material.

 
 Posted:   Oct 6, 2005 - 7:50 PM   
 By:   Ray Worley   (Member)

It doesn't bother me in the least that James Horner borrows from himself. Almost everyone does that to some degree...sometimes what seems like self plagiarism is just evidence of a strong personal style. Other times it is direct lifting of one's old work. Again, I have no problem with this and IMHO it is often due to the pressures of time constraints.

HOWEVER, Horner's frequent and blatant uncredited liftings from other composers is unacceptable. I have several Horner scores that I like very much that are substantially original and I agree that he has a talent. Why does he feel the need to borrow so much and not have the integrity to acknowledge the source?
For me, this tendency has placed him firmly in the middle rank of composers working today...nowhere near the top, certainly not in the top 3 to 5. His success with Producers and Directors can be credited to their musical ignorance of the source of the great music they are hearing and to his talent as an arranger (or if you wish to quibble, to score rather than compose).
I also firmly believe that many of his ardent fans that feel they have fallen in love with his music have been duped, because they are actually fans of Prokofiev, Shostokovich, Part, Ives, Katchaturian, and so on ad naseum (as has been so well-documented in this thread). I consider myself fairly knowledgeable about classical music (for instance, I caught that “Red Heat” was stolen from Prokofiev’s “Cantata for the 20th Anniversary of the October Revolution” on the day I saw it in a theatre), but I’ve seen some things in this thread that left me even more disappointed in Horner. I thought I was hearing something original from Horner and now it turns out it was yet another stolen bit of music I was not familiar with.
Finally, I disagree with the contention that he is a great composer because he brings such emotion to the score. IMHO except when he is using someone else’s music, this emotion is often of the pure schmaltz variety…just flashy soap-suds.

 
 
 Posted:   Oct 6, 2005 - 8:03 PM   
 By:   Tall Guy   (Member)



Yeah sorry Chris, I thought as much but hadn't spotted anything in this thread. Anyway, I'm new.

As for more on me in the profile, I'll just have to remain mysterious...


Wooah there - no apology necessary! It's a relief for me that someone else has grabbed the baton, as it were.

Often, people talk about Goldsmith, Williams and Horner as if the others didn't really exist (although, to be fair, Herrmann, Barry and the golden-agers also have their proponents). Some of us stand up for our own favourites beyond this revered list, mine being Shostakovich and Morricone.

Unfortunately, it sometimes seems as if I'm putting forward a "my cat's greyer than your cat" argument (sorry, CAT) but I keep banging away.

And you're being secretive, eh? That means you either are "someone", or want us to think that you are. My money's on the former. Me, I'm nobody, so my profile's comprehensive.

Regards, whoever you may be

Chris

 
 Posted:   Oct 7, 2005 - 12:15 AM   
 By:   Mike Esssss   (Member)

But...maybe it's because Horner has proven he's so talented that I'm just more disappointed when he serves up rehashed material.

EXACTLY.

 
 Posted:   Oct 7, 2005 - 2:32 AM   
 By:   drivingmissdaisy   (Member)

Again I'll say after this LONG bashing I'm not surprised that Horner has not given a concert of his film music, with this kind of talk, he probably NEVER will, sadly. A concert of Horner's would be incredible, up there, yes I'll say it, WITH WILLIAMS.

 
 
 Posted:   Oct 7, 2005 - 2:59 AM   
 By:   crazyunclerolo   (Member)

Under the heading "It Takes One to Know One", you Horner-bashers have been yammering on about it ad nauseum for years now, never missing an opportunity to chew the same old tired cabbage! Although I am a fan of Horner, I can certainly see the point you've all been making about his appropriation of classical pieces and his repeating of his own motifs and themes to a greater degree than most other composers. I'd be able to see your point if I was standing on the surface of Mars, you've repeated it so often! I wish I WAS standing on the surface of Mars, so I wouldn't ever have to listen to this conversation again!

Windbags!

 
 Posted:   Oct 7, 2005 - 3:00 AM   
 By:   Alexander Zambra   (Member)

No matter what I do enjoy Horner now and then (more then than now).
Plagiarism or not the man can be a competent composer.

 
 
 Posted:   Oct 7, 2005 - 5:48 AM   
 By:   ian642002   (Member)

You could argue this way or the other about Horner, one fact remains true: the guy has one hell of a record collection.

 
 Posted:   Oct 7, 2005 - 7:55 AM   
 By:   chriss   (Member)

LEGENDS OF THE FALL (Theme) - an old traditional. Some years ago, I heard a Jazz track from the forties and surprise! Note by note LEGENDS OF THE FALL!

What's the name of that piece and who performed it?

 
 Posted:   Oct 7, 2005 - 11:50 AM   
 By:   Mike Esssss   (Member)

I wish I WAS standing on the surface of Mars, so I wouldn't ever have to listen to this conversation again!


Who's forcing you to?

 
 
 Posted:   Oct 7, 2005 - 12:04 PM   
 By:   Port   (Member)

I'm sorry. I don't know anymore. It was from a Box-Set with Jazz from the twenties to the fifties. But it was really note by note LEGENDS OF THE FALL!


 
 
 Posted:   Oct 7, 2005 - 12:40 PM   
 By:   floyd   (Member)

mmmmmm

 
 
 Posted:   Oct 7, 2005 - 3:04 PM   
 By:   Reeler   (Member)

"I wish I WAS standing on the surface of Mars, so I wouldn't ever have to listen to this conversation again!"


"Who's forcing you to?"

Gravity.

 
 Posted:   Oct 7, 2005 - 7:23 PM   
 By:   Ron Pulliam   (Member)

"I wish I WAS standing on the surface of Mars, so I wouldn't ever have to listen to this conversation again!"


"Who's forcing you to?"

Gravity.


Good lord! Is there sound, too?

How do I turn it on?

 
 
 Posted:   Oct 8, 2005 - 12:46 AM   
 By:   crazyunclerolo   (Member)

Windbags!

 
 
 Posted:   Oct 8, 2005 - 4:34 AM   
 By:   Howard L   (Member)

heh heh

 
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