Film Score Monthly
FSM HOME MESSAGE BOARD FSM CDs FSM ONLINE RESOURCES FUN STUFF ABOUT US  SEARCH FSM   
Search Terms: 
Search Within:   search tips 
You must log in or register to post.
  Go to page:    
 Posted:   May 28, 2020 - 1:08 PM   
 By:   Last Child   (Member)

You can't hear 24-bit music with two-bit ears anyway, you lousy bums, so what're arguing about.

 
 
 Posted:   May 28, 2020 - 1:18 PM   
 By:   Smaug   (Member)

So when is this happening and on what label?

 
 
 Posted:   May 28, 2020 - 1:18 PM   
 By:   Roy Donga   (Member)

Dear Roger and Doug,

Would you consider making Horner's glorious score play uninterrupted by the pop songs on the reissue?

Disc 1: The Complete Score
01 Main Title (4:43)
02 The Gizmo (3:25)
03 Finding The Rocket (1:52)
04 Neville And Eddie (1:07)
05 Testing The Rocket (2:40)
06 Lothar Gets Wilmer (1:44)
07 The Helmet (0:45)
08 The Laughing Bandit (1:10)
09 Neville Eavesdrops (1:25)
10 The Flying Circus (6:35)
11 A Hero Is Born/Bye Bye Bigelow (2:51)
12 Jenny’s Rescue (3:52)
13 Cliff To The Club (0:49)
14 Cliff The Waiter (0:32)
15 South Seas Send Up (3:43)
16 Neville Sinclair’s House (7:19)
17 Cliff Caught (1:38)
18 Rendezvous At Observatory (8:10)
19 The Zeppelin (7:56)
20 End Title/End Credits (6:30)
21 Love Theme (5:10)
TOTAL TIME - 74:43

Disc 2: The Original 1991 Soundtrack Album
01 Main Title / Takeoff (4:43)
02 The Flying Circus (6:23)
03 Jenny (5:10)
04 Begin The Beguine (3:44)
05 Neville Sinclair’s House (7:20)
06 Jenny’s Rescue (3:21)
07 Rendezvous At The Griffith Park Observatory (8:10)
08 When Your Lover Has Gone (3:28)
09 The Zeppelin (7:56)
10 Rocketeer To The Rescue/End Title (6:30)
TOTAL TIME - 57:16


Totally agree with this. I would have to buy this again.

 
 Posted:   May 28, 2020 - 1:27 PM   
 By:   JGouse0498   (Member)

So when is this happening and on what label?

Intrada. Same label that released it initially.

And I don't think a specific timetable was given. I'm guessing "in the near future".

 
 
 Posted:   May 28, 2020 - 1:57 PM   
 By:   Nono   (Member)

To John (and those who are interested):

I was speaking of the dynamic range of the recording, not the dynamic range of the performance.

And I agree with you, even if you don't say it that way: when the sound is full and rich in harmonics, a wide dynamic range is not a problem.

I have no refrigerator in my listening room. I had one years ago, though, but it was not a real problem since it didn't need to work constantly.

After the car test, I now know that there is also a refrigerator test! smile

About The Rocketeer, even when I listen to it on my cheaper sound system (in my bedroom), I have no problem with the dynamic range and volume levels: it's not a Mahler symphony recorded by Deutsche Grammophon or Decca.

Even Roger Feigelson said a few years ago that it sounded pretty good in his car, and that it sounded even better in his living room.

Doing a mastering with the limitations of some sound systems or some bad and noisy environment in mind doesn't make any sense to me: I mean I can understand it commercially, but not artistically.

And as you said in another thread, we can have a good and balanced sound system at a very decent price nowadays.

There are many people here and in the Intrada forum who don't have any problem with the dynamic range of The Rocketeer, and they probably don't all have hi-end and expensive systems.

- Bruno

 
 Posted:   May 28, 2020 - 1:59 PM   
 By:   danbeck   (Member)

Actually, it is. Like I said, I didn't have the words to explain it the way John did, but background environmental sound definitely is a factor. The best anecdotal evidence I can offer is this: listen to a movie or CD at 3:00 pm and then again at the same volume at 3:00 am. My experience is that, at 3 in the morning, it sounds twice as loud because everything else is absolutely quiet.

Again as I said it depends on your environment. I just don't see why audio quality should be compromised because some people have less not ideal listening environments.

If your space is noisy then the headphones option should be preferred.


Just as a side comment, it is a fact that ambient noise is very relevant (as the night vs. day experience of listening to same recording demonstrates), but it is not true that you can't listen to sounds below 40db when there is some ambient sound at that level.
Frequency is also an important factor (a high pitched sound can be perceived simultaneously with a louder low frequency sound and vice-versa) - otherwise in any environment you would be able to listen "only" to the loudest sound, which is not the case.
In fact some soundtrack composers when scoring noisy action scenes adopt this techinique of scoring their music at a higher/lower frequency than the sound effects to coexist with them.

 
 Posted:   May 28, 2020 - 2:05 PM   
 By:   John Schuermann   (Member)

...40 db of good old generic household background noise (refrigerator, HVAC, outside traffic, etc).

Is this really relevant though? How many people have a refrigerator in or near to their listening space? In my country we don't have domestic HVACs, they are the preserve of offices, shopping malls and hotels. Outside traffic noise is dependant on where one lives, and is much less of an issue if one listens to music at night (which I'm sure many do).

I feel if one lives in a noisy area, rather invest in a decent pair of noise isolating headphones than complain about recordings that present orchestral music in it's proper dynamic range.


The 40 db number for background household noise is well documented, and easy enough to test for yourself if you have an iPhone or iPad. Simply download a free SPL meter app and measure your background noise level in your home. I think you will be surprised at how high it is. As I type this I am sitting in my acoustically treated home theater, away from main living areas of the house. Using REW and a calibrated mic I am measuring an average of 46.5 db background noise. A/C is on at the moment. Just turned off the a/c, and am now measuring 39.8 db. And it sounds dead quiet in here. FWIW, I live on the north side of Colorado Springs, way north of the city proper and in a rural neighborhood. (Quick fun note - when I type on my laptop, the SPL meter is reading about 55 db average).

Just curious - what do you use for heating and cooling in your country? Here in the US it is typically forced air gas heat in the winter, and air conditioning in the summer. Even with all that turned off, I am still getting right around 40 db.

FWIW, for two of my professions - home theater design and film / music mixing - I routinely have to jump through hoops to make sure noise in an environment is minimized. Even in the best acoustically isolated mix rooms, you are lucky to get the average noise level down below 30 db. Computer fan noise is usually the culprit here. It has nothing to do with living in a noisy area, as if you live in the city, your average background noise level is closer to 60 db.

Two major problems listening on headphones. First, it's not even close to being an accurate representation of what a live performance sounds like. When has the last time you listened to a soloist or vocalist in a live setting where the sound of the instrument or singer was localized someplace inside your head? Also, you miss out on the reflected sound of the room, which is much of what gives music its sense of "space" and openness.

Not to say that listening on a great set of headphones isn't a wonderful experience - it is. However, it is simply not the same experience as listening to a great set of speakers in a quality listening environment.

IMO, ideally recordings would be issued with full dynamic range and you could then add compression in the playback device to tune it to the listening environment. I would guess that half or more music listening happens in the car, or at background levels. In those types of listening situations, dynamic compression would be welcome. When listening critically in a well insulated space, turn off the compression. Problem solved.

Now, all I have to do is convince the recording and consumer electronics industries to follow my idea. smile

 
 
 Posted:   May 28, 2020 - 2:11 PM   
 By:   KeV McG   (Member)

No matter how this new reissue turns out, I'm sure Rutherford with still find something to piss and moan about.

 
 Posted:   May 28, 2020 - 2:12 PM   
 By:   John Schuermann   (Member)

To John (and those who are interested):

I was speaking of the dynamic range of the recording, not the dynamic range of the performance.

And I agree with you, even if you don't say it that way: when the sound is full and rich in harmonics, a wide dynamic range is not a problem.

I have no refrigerator in my listening room. I had one years ago, though, but it was not a real problem since it didn't need to work constantly.

After the car test, I now know that there is also a refrigerator test! smile

About The Rocketeer, even when I listen to it on my cheaper sound system (in my bedroom), I have no problem with the dynamic range and volume levels: it's not a Mahler symphony recorded by Deutsche Grammophon or Decca.

Even Roger Feigelson said a few years ago that it sounded pretty good in his car, and that it sounded even better in his living room.

Doing a mastering with the limitations of some sound systems or some bad and noisy environment in mind doesn't make any sense to me: I mean I can understand it commercially, but not artistically.

And as you said in another thread, we can have a good and balanced sound system at a very decent price nowadays.

There are many people here and in the Intrada forum who don't have any problem with the dynamic range of The Rocketeer, and they probably don't all have hi-end and expensive systems.

- Bruno


Agree with all this. And I agree that many recordings are WAY over-compressed. And hopefully it's clear that I am NOT arguing for massive compression. All I am arguing against is the idea that ALL dynamic compression is bad. The mastering artist needs to balance out artistic "purity" against real world listening conditions.

It's best to try and retain as much dynamic range as possible while keeping in mind the limitations of real world listening environments. I would agree with you (and others) who argue that many recordings over the last few decades have been "dumbed down" to far too great of a degree, and I would overall like to see dynamic range restored to many recordings that have been robbed of it. But it's not a black and white thing.

Funny how everyone is talking about refrigerators when I just used it as an example of something that runs in our households that most people don't even notice. As I posted above, even in my acoustically treated home theater, I am still measuring 39 db of noise with everything off smile

 
 Posted:   May 28, 2020 - 2:14 PM   
 By:   CitizenJoe   (Member)

Dear Roger and Doug,

Would you consider making Horner's glorious score play uninterrupted by the pop songs on the reissue?

Disc 1: The Complete Score
01 Main Title (4:43)
02 The Gizmo (3:25)
03 Finding The Rocket (1:52)
04 Neville And Eddie (1:07)
05 Testing The Rocket (2:40)
06 Lothar Gets Wilmer (1:44)
07 The Helmet (0:45)
08 The Laughing Bandit (1:10)
09 Neville Eavesdrops (1:25)
10 The Flying Circus (6:35)
11 A Hero Is Born/Bye Bye Bigelow (2:51)
12 Jenny’s Rescue (3:52)
13 Cliff To The Club (0:49)
14 Cliff The Waiter (0:32)
15 South Seas Send Up (3:43)
16 Neville Sinclair’s House (7:19)
17 Cliff Caught (1:38)
18 Rendezvous At Observatory (8:10)
19 The Zeppelin (7:56)
20 End Title/End Credits (6:30)
21 Love Theme (5:10)
TOTAL TIME - 74:43

Disc 2: The Original 1991 Soundtrack Album
01 Main Title / Takeoff (4:43)
02 The Flying Circus (6:23)
03 Jenny (5:10)
04 Begin The Beguine (3:44)
05 Neville Sinclair’s House (7:20)
06 Jenny’s Rescue (3:21)
07 Rendezvous At The Griffith Park Observatory (8:10)
08 When Your Lover Has Gone (3:28)
09 The Zeppelin (7:56)
10 Rocketeer To The Rescue/End Title (6:30)
TOTAL TIME - 57:16


Use this program and get Matessino to master it and I'm sold (again)!

 
 Posted:   May 28, 2020 - 2:24 PM   
 By:   John Schuermann   (Member)

Just as a side comment, it is a fact that ambient noise is very relevant (as the night vs. day experience of listening to same recording demonstrates), but it is not true that you can't listen to sounds below 40db when there is some ambient sound at that level.
Frequency is also an important factor (a high pitched sound can be perceived simultaneously with a louder low frequency sound and vice-versa) - otherwise in any environment you would be able to listen "only" to the loudest sound, which is not the case.
In fact some soundtrack composers when scoring noisy action scenes adopt this techinique of scoring their music at a higher/lower frequency than the sound effects to coexist with them.


This is true. Most of the ever-present ambient noise in a room is of the "white noise" variety, so fairly broad bandwidth. I often have to take A/C noise out of location dialogue recordings, and it's amazing what the new plug-ins can do toward rescuing dialogue that was previously almost unintelligible (I hate looping scenes - the actor's energy is never quite the same).

But your point is a good one - if the ambient noise is at 60 db but all low frequency, an oboe solo will still rise above it.

What you are describing also applies to orchestration - if a composer writes a complex piece but only orchestrates it for bassoon, bass, cello, tuba and trombone, the "masking effect" will render much of the musical detail inaudible.

 
 
 Posted:   May 28, 2020 - 2:39 PM   
 By:   Nono   (Member)

Funny how everyone is talking about refrigerators when I just used it as an example of something that runs in our households that most people don't even notice. As I posted above, even in my acoustically treated home theater, I am still measuring 39 db of noise with everything off smile

I use a tube amplifier, and as you may know, it can be a little noisy, except that when the music pass through the tubes and fill the air in my room, I can't hear their noise anymore.

As danbeck said, the noise which can be heard in a room doesn't neutralize the sound which comes from the speakers.

And I had understood what you meant with the refrigerator example. smile

- Bruno

 
 Posted:   May 28, 2020 - 3:59 PM   
 By:   Hedji   (Member)

Another vote for Jason's suggestion to put the source songs on the Album presentation and the full score on Disc 1.

Thank you for the decision on the mastering also. I will re buy this.

 
 
 Posted:   May 28, 2020 - 4:14 PM   
 By:   Grack21   (Member)

Well that exploded.

I'll just say the main reason I'M attacked to the old release is because it was the maybe the 3rd or 4th cd I ever bought. razz

 
 Posted:   May 28, 2020 - 4:32 PM   
 By:   johnonymous86   (Member)

Count me in for a purchase as well. I missed the first pressing.

There will be a new pressing. In fact it's been remastered to match Shawn Murphy's original mastering from the Hollywood CD many people became married to.



Awesome!!!!

 
 
 Posted:   May 28, 2020 - 6:10 PM   
 By:   Roger Feigelson   (Member)

Dear Roger and Doug,

Would you consider making Horner's glorious score play uninterrupted by the pop songs on the reissue?

Disc 1: The Complete Score
01 Main Title (4:43)
02 The Gizmo (3:25)
03 Finding The Rocket (1:52)
04 Neville And Eddie (1:07)
05 Testing The Rocket (2:40)
06 Lothar Gets Wilmer (1:44)
07 The Helmet (0:45)
08 The Laughing Bandit (1:10)
09 Neville Eavesdrops (1:25)
10 The Flying Circus (6:35)
11 A Hero Is Born/Bye Bye Bigelow (2:51)
12 Jenny’s Rescue (3:52)
13 Cliff To The Club (0:49)
14 Cliff The Waiter (0:32)
15 South Seas Send Up (3:43)
16 Neville Sinclair’s House (7:19)
17 Cliff Caught (1:38)
18 Rendezvous At Observatory (8:10)
19 The Zeppelin (7:56)
20 End Title/End Credits (6:30)
21 Love Theme (5:10)
TOTAL TIME - 74:43

Disc 2: The Original 1991 Soundtrack Album
01 Main Title / Takeoff (4:43)
02 The Flying Circus (6:23)
03 Jenny (5:10)
04 Begin The Beguine (3:44)
05 Neville Sinclair’s House (7:20)
06 Jenny’s Rescue (3:21)
07 Rendezvous At The Griffith Park Observatory (8:10)
08 When Your Lover Has Gone (3:28)
09 The Zeppelin (7:56)
10 Rocketeer To The Rescue/End Title (6:30)
TOTAL TIME - 57:16


Unfortunately no. The album is already remastered. Frankly this becomes a chasing our tail exercise because people have different visions on how to produce something, making it impossible to please everyone. In this case we stuck with how Horner wanted the presentation, which Doug also likes and his vote does count! I am hoping people can find it in their heart to respect that.

 
 Posted:   May 28, 2020 - 7:23 PM   
 By:   Jeyl   (Member)

How intrusive are these pop songs? Are they separated enough to simply move them out of the way or do they blend in with Horner's score to the point that going to the next track would cause for a jumpy presentation?

 
 Posted:   May 28, 2020 - 7:28 PM   
 By:   The Mutant   (Member)

I’m just happy to have the cd finally. With iTunes and digital libraries, I don’t know why this is even an issue anymore with the ease of programming your own playlists. Just simply don’t import them.

 
 Posted:   May 28, 2020 - 7:31 PM   
 By:   Jeyl   (Member)

I’m just happy to have the cd finally. With iTunes and digital libraries, I don’t know why this is even an issue anymore with the ease of programming your own playlists. Just simply don’t import them.

So they're completely stand alone tracks? If that's the case, I'm perfectly content.

 
 Posted:   May 28, 2020 - 9:06 PM   
 By:   John Schuermann   (Member)

Yeah, don't get it. Just program out the tracks you don't like, or build your own playlist. I rip all my music (which makes that super simple) but even basic CD players will allow you to program track order. Or hit "skip." smile

 
You must log in or register to post.
  Go to page:    
© 2020 Film Score Monthly. All Rights Reserved...