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 Posted:   Aug 2, 2021 - 9:23 AM   
 By:   HalloweenBorg   (Member)

Interesting, Elfman is credited with "2021 CD Produced by". I hope this is an indication of his interest in a similarly exhaustive presentation of his other scores. This new Intrada edition is almost like getting 3 Elfman scores at once. You couldn't ask for more.

How do you figure that?

 
 
 Posted:   Aug 2, 2021 - 9:33 AM   
 By:   ryankeaveney   (Member)

Interesting, Elfman is credited with "2021 CD Produced by". I hope this is an indication of his interest in a similarly exhaustive presentation of his other scores. This new Intrada edition is almost like getting 3 Elfman scores at once. You couldn't ask for more.

How do you figure that?


If you consider the score as heard on the album, the score as heard in the film and the score comprised of alternates.

 
 
 Posted:   Aug 2, 2021 - 10:43 AM   
 By:   HalloweenBorg   (Member)

Interesting, Elfman is credited with "2021 CD Produced by". I hope this is an indication of his interest in a similarly exhaustive presentation of his other scores. This new Intrada edition is almost like getting 3 Elfman scores at once. You couldn't ask for more.

How do you figure that?


If you consider the score as heard on the album, the score as heard in the film and the score comprised of alternates.


It’s not like you got Pee-wee, Batman and Beetlejuice. Sleepy Hollow is pretty repetitive.

 
 Posted:   Aug 2, 2021 - 4:01 PM   
 By:   T.J. Turner   (Member)

I received the Sleepy Hollow set today. And I am concerned about the comments in the last paragraph of page 28 of the notes regarding the hot mastering levels of the original album. The "boosted" levels of the original album was very difficult to listen to. This was before I understood the ideas behind dynamic compression and brick walling but I always knew something was wrong with the way the original album sounded especially in the more complex and layered portions of the music which being muddy and the louder parts being fatiguing. It's truly a difficult listen to a fantastic score, maybe one of Elfman's best. I don't even think he has surpassed it!
Now Intrada has acknowledged these boosted levels, but have decided to retain them for the original album presentation in this box set. I was very much looking forward to a more neutral presentation of the original album being a highlight of this release.

I'm wondering why they did this? I assumed that the original album was just a victim of the start of the loudness wars trending around the late 90s. Not done for any technical reasons that would enhance the listening experience or integrity to the original recording. But a decision demanded by some executives just trying to stay in business and hadn't even listen to the score.
Intrada's decision to preserve this sound, makes it seem like it was always correct. But this can't be, because it sounded terrible!
I am grateful that the film presentation of the score on disc 2 and 3 have taking the correct approach and avoided the boosted levels at least.

I know Intrada reissued the Rocketeer because there was a demand for the original mastering. Perhaps a similar thing could be done here? Could we get a more neutral and dynamic mix of the original album?

 
 
 Posted:   Aug 2, 2021 - 4:25 PM   
 By:   Roger Feigelson   (Member)

I received the Sleepy Hollow set today. And I am concerned about the comments in the last paragraph of page 28 of the notes regarding the hot mastering levels of the original album. The "boosted" levels of the original album was very difficult to listen to. This was before I understood the ideas behind dynamic compression and brick walling but I always knew something was wrong with the way the original album sounded especially in the more complex and layered portions of the music which being muddy and the louder parts being fatiguing. It's truly a difficult listen to a fantastic score, maybe one of Elfman's best. I don't even think he has surpassed it!
Now Intrada has acknowledged these boosted levels, but have decided to retain them for the original album presentation in this box set. I was very much looking forward to a more neutral presentation of the original album being a highlight of this release.

I'm wondering why they did this? I assumed that the original album was just a victim of the start of the loudness wars trending around the late 90s. Not done for any technical reasons that would enhance the listening experience or integrity to the original recording. But a decision demanded by some executives just trying to stay in business and hadn't even listen to the score.
Intrada's decision to preserve this sound, makes it seem like it was always correct. But this can't be, because it sounded terrible!
I am grateful that the film presentation of the score on disc 2 and 3 have taking the correct approach and avoided the boosted levels at least.

I know Intrada reissued the Rocketeer because there was a demand for the original mastering. Perhaps a similar thing could be done here? Could we get a more neutral and dynamic mix of the original album?


I think you have that a little backwards. On Rocketeer we went with the "neutral presentation" and there was a revolt, so we went back and rematched the mastering. So with this release, we skipped the rioting and just preserved the original mastering. But the expanded soundtrack is that "netural presentation" you're looking for. Chalk this up to you can't win with any decision.

 
 Posted:   Aug 2, 2021 - 4:38 PM   
 By:   T.J. Turner   (Member)



I think you have that a little backwards. On Rocketeer we went with the "neutral presentation" and there was a revolt, so we went back and rematched the mastering. So with this release, we skipped the rioting and just preserved the original mastering. But the expanded soundtrack is that "netural presentation" you're looking for. Chalk this up to you can't win with any decision.


I am in no way ungrateful for your efforts. It's just not what I expected, I thought finally a listenable version of the soundtrack! But actually no. I look forward to listening to the film version. I'm not as familiar with it as I am the album presentation. BTW I never took issue with the The Rocketeer, I don't know what that revolt was all about.

 
 Posted:   Aug 2, 2021 - 4:50 PM   
 By:   Advise & Consent   (Member)

BTW I never took issue with the The Rocketeer, I don't know what that revolt was all about.

I never really understood what that was all about either.

 
 
 Posted:   Aug 2, 2021 - 5:11 PM   
 By:   HalloweenBorg   (Member)



I think you have that a little backwards. On Rocketeer we went with the "neutral presentation" and there was a revolt, so we went back and rematched the mastering. So with this release, we skipped the rioting and just preserved the original mastering. But the expanded soundtrack is that "netural presentation" you're looking for. Chalk this up to you can't win with any decision.


I am in no way ungrateful for your efforts. It's just not what I expected, I thought finally a listenable version of the soundtrack! But actually no. I look forward to listening to the film version. I'm not as familiar with it as I am the album presentation. BTW I never took issue with the The Rocketeer, I don't know what that revolt was all about.


You don’t have to bow before Intrada. You had a complaint, put it out there, Roger issued a response with his obligatory snark in it. No need to express how not ungrateful you are.

 
 
 Posted:   Aug 2, 2021 - 5:34 PM   
 By:   Roger Feigelson   (Member)



I think you have that a little backwards. On Rocketeer we went with the "neutral presentation" and there was a revolt, so we went back and rematched the mastering. So with this release, we skipped the rioting and just preserved the original mastering. But the expanded soundtrack is that "netural presentation" you're looking for. Chalk this up to you can't win with any decision.


I am in no way ungrateful for your efforts. It's just not what I expected, I thought finally a listenable version of the soundtrack! But actually no. I look forward to listening to the film version. I'm not as familiar with it as I am the album presentation. BTW I never took issue with the The Rocketeer, I don't know what that revolt was all about.


You don’t have to bow before Intrada. You had a complaint, put it out there, Roger issued a response with his obligatory snark in it. No need to express how not ungrateful you are.


There was no snark intended, so I apologize if it came across that way.

 
 
 Posted:   Aug 2, 2021 - 5:38 PM   
 By:   Jurassic T. Park   (Member)

This is an interesting discussion because we're really talking about mixing for the album releases.

It seems the gold standard so far is for the film presentation of a score to match what is heard in the film, which makes sense.

But as far as the album presentation goes, it's more challenging because most albums present alternates or material that is altered or different from the film and mixed completely differently, specifically for commercial purposes outside the film itself. To me, the inclusion of an album version on these multi-disc sets is simply to provide a higher resolution master of that album version purely for archival purposes.

Since the album versions inherently feature different mixing from the film, I see no reason or see no consistent guiding post to mix the album presentation any differently than it was first mixed, to be as neutral as possible.

I hate mixing overall because there is no answer - Star Wars is a great example where the 4-disc ANTHOLOGY has different mixes from the 1997 SPECIAL EDITION mixes which sound different from the mixes for the 2004 SONY editions. They all have their merits. And a film mix is designed to take all the other non-musical sound elements in mind, so it's an infinite set of possibilities.

In my perfect world I'd love to have all the takes, all the separately recorded tracks of the instruments and instrument groups and hear it ALL, HOURS AND HOURS of music. Maybe just for Star Wars. But ultimately when it comes down to it, you've got to settle on something for the mix and film presentation to match film makes sense and album presentation to preserve its original mix makes sense too.

While I haven't received this set yet, I'm sure I'll be fine with it.

 
 
 Posted:   Aug 2, 2021 - 5:49 PM   
 By:   HalloweenBorg   (Member)



I think you have that a little backwards. On Rocketeer we went with the "neutral presentation" and there was a revolt, so we went back and rematched the mastering. So with this release, we skipped the rioting and just preserved the original mastering. But the expanded soundtrack is that "netural presentation" you're looking for. Chalk this up to you can't win with any decision.


I am in no way ungrateful for your efforts. It's just not what I expected, I thought finally a listenable version of the soundtrack! But actually no. I look forward to listening to the film version. I'm not as familiar with it as I am the album presentation. BTW I never took issue with the The Rocketeer, I don't know what that revolt was all about.


You don’t have to bow before Intrada. You had a complaint, put it out there, Roger issued a response with his obligatory snark in it. No need to express how not ungrateful you are.


There was no snark intended, so I apologize if it came across that way.


Fair enough. My mistake.

 
 Posted:   Aug 2, 2021 - 6:07 PM   
 By:   Basil Wrathbone   (Member)

On Rocketeer we went with the "neutral presentation" and there was a revolt, so we went back and rematched the mastering. So with this release, we skipped the rioting and just preserved the original mastering. But the expanded soundtrack is that "netural presentation" you're looking for. Chalk this up to you can't win with any decision.



Which begs the question, why bother with the original at all if the sound isn't improved? Surely most people who like a score enough to buy an expanded 4CD edition will already have the previous 1CD release.
By presenting an amended/improved mastering of the old release in the new presentation, buyers would then have had a choice of which they prefer.

 
 
 Posted:   Aug 3, 2021 - 8:34 AM   
 By:   ClaytonMG   (Member)

On Rocketeer we went with the "neutral presentation" and there was a revolt, so we went back and rematched the mastering. So with this release, we skipped the rioting and just preserved the original mastering. But the expanded soundtrack is that "netural presentation" you're looking for. Chalk this up to you can't win with any decision.



Which begs the question, why bother with the original at all if the sound isn't improved? Surely most people who like a score enough to buy an expanded 4CD edition will already have the previous 1CD release.
By presenting an amended/improved mastering of the old release in the new presentation, buyers would then have had a choice of which they prefer.


Actually I bought the 4 CD set and didn't own the original release... But I would've been fine with a remaster. Maybe Elfman also wanted the preserve it as is?

 
 
 Posted:   Aug 3, 2021 - 9:25 AM   
 By:   Jurassic T. Park   (Member)

Well wait a second, I’m under the impression when these “album presentations” are included in a release they may not be remixed but they are remastered to remove a lot of noise or low volume that might have been present originally.

Instead it sounds like the “album presentation” is simply included as if I’m being handed the same album CD from over a decade ago?

 
 Posted:   Aug 6, 2021 - 5:18 AM   
 By:   JasonComerford   (Member)

Kudos to the team that put this one together. Mine arrived yesterday, and I sat down and listened to discs 2-4 straight through -- something I almost never do. This is the Elfman sound I grew up on, the one I personally prefer. This is the last blast of that lush Gothic sound he does so well; in my opinion, he's hasn't written anything nearly as interesting since. Four-plus hours of Elfman in this mode is an embarassment of riches.

 
 Posted:   Aug 6, 2021 - 6:34 AM   
 By:   w-dervish   (Member)

It seems the gold standard so far is for the film presentation of a score to match what is heard in the film, which makes sense.

I thought the gold standard was AS RECORDED for the film. Sans any music editor changes that may have been made later. Because the film edit was changed. Or because the director decided to track music in. Or for some other reason the music the composer wrote and was recorded for a particular sequence wasn't used.

 
 
 Posted:   Aug 6, 2021 - 9:44 AM   
 By:   ryankeaveney   (Member)

Received my copy yesterday. The unreleased and alternates sound fantastic. The album presentation sounds the same as the OST, which is fine. I understood the choices made when mixing/mastering the Hollywood album—the often harsh edge seems to fit the music's aesthetic.

As I've said before, I really hope this is a sign of things to come and the kitchen sink approach becomes the de facto presentation for score albums (or at the very least, Elfman ones.) It really puts the control into the end-user's hands to either enjoy it in total or find a preferable sequence.

 
 Posted:   Aug 6, 2021 - 10:42 AM   
 By:   Advise & Consent   (Member)

As I've said before, I really hope this is a sign of things to come and the kitchen sink approach becomes the de facto presentation for score albums

You are planning to rob Las Vegas first, right?

 
 
 Posted:   Aug 6, 2021 - 11:46 AM   
 By:   Jurassic T. Park   (Member)

It seems the gold standard so far is for the film presentation of a score to match what is heard in the film, which makes sense.

I thought the gold standard was AS RECORDED for the film. Sans any music editor changes that may have been made later. Because the film edit was changed. Or because the director decided to track music in. Or for some other reason the music the composer wrote and was recorded for a particular sequence wasn't used.


Yes, that is true.

Although some films have the music so tracked and edited it makes it difficult to present them properly as-recorded. PHANTOM MENACE ULTIMATE EDITION comes to mind as an example of heavy editing, but just recently Kamen's X-MEN was also a difficult album to arrange a proper sequence of "FILM PRESENTATION".

This brings up an interesting point because I actually enjoyed the PHANTOM MENACE ULTIMATE EDITION, partly because some of the edits during the penultimate lightsaber duel worked really well with rapid cutting (although I don't know what the actual separate cues were like so I can't completely confirm).

You raise a great point because for films like PHANTOM MENACE or ATTACK OF THE CLONES, they balance between playing cues in full, to editing some of them, to tracking some of them within the film, to tracking some of them from other films.

Some CD releases present the music cues "as-is" in chronological sequence, with a few additional tracks as "film version", and I think that's the way to go.

So base-level standard is: all the music cues recorded for the film, complete, sequenced as chronologically as possible.

Beyond that the ultimate platinum diamond standard is:

-additional tracks presenting film versions of cues.
-alternates
-album presentation

 
 
 Posted:   Aug 6, 2021 - 11:48 AM   
 By:   Jurassic T. Park   (Member)

Received my copy yesterday. The unreleased and alternates sound fantastic. The album presentation sounds the same as the OST, which is fine. I understood the choices made when mixing/mastering the Hollywood album—the often harsh edge seems to fit the music's aesthetic.

As I've said before, I really hope this is a sign of things to come and the kitchen sink approach becomes the de facto presentation for score albums (or at the very least, Elfman ones.) It really puts the control into the end-user's hands to either enjoy it in total or find a preferable sequence.


I'm kicking myself for including Myers and Zimmer's "THE WIND" in my order because it's holding up the delivery so I have to keep waiting. I don't need more points against Zimmer razz

 
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