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Here's a link to the HG-W interview:
https://www.ifiji.com/yumbo/hgwinfo.htm
Oh man, Yumbo's page! That's a trip down memory lane.
This bit regarding THE ROCK stands out:
Q: What was your contribution to THE ROCK?
I basically helped Nick Glennie Smith and Hans get through it - there was a mountain of music to be written and hardly any time (what's new), not to mention probably the most odious director alive plus the eternal task master Jerry "let's torture Harry now" Bruckheimer ...
I thought this was a really interesting comment, too:
Q: Who's the most understanding director you've worked with?
They all bring something different to the music making process - sometimes havoc and confusion even! But Tony Scott was the most incisive and he posseses amazing insight into the possibilities that score can open up.
I wonder how composers like Jablonsky and Balfe have managed to work repeatedly with Bay if he is so odious? Maybe HGW is a bit difficult too?
I think there's somewhat of a history of Bay being like that. There was an interview with Mark Mancina about Bad Boys (I believe the foot chase scene) where he was presenting it to Bay and he just wasn't interested at all (if I'm remembering correctly). But I think really its just finding the right dynamic with people (like Jablobsky and Balfe) so it just has a way of working. Different strokes for different folks.
Mancina also said in a recent interview that he "ran away from THE ROCK", or something like that. I don't know if he was ever considered as composer though.
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Horner "had a say" about the Intrada albums for HONEY, I SHRUNK THE KIDS & SOMETHING WICKED THIS WAY COMES. Now, many then & now are hoping for expansions....as well as reissues, those two are expensive!
Let me propose this. Your favorite score (or a very much top one).
The composer completely reconfigures the piece, and misses The Cue I Needed.
Do you still respect that what they did was best for us....or get pissed you didn't get the option?
My thoughts ...if there's enough room (Hi Blood Simple!) to have the composer's vision alongside Everything else, prior album, etc. Cool! We're savvy enough to differentiate the two (or more).
I can't understand, bedding down for the night and thinking "Gee, I'm so glad Chris Young repurposed JENNIFER 8 on the LLL set, because I shouldn't hear those pesky old Milan alternate tracks! I'm sleeping well, knowing he's happy, and my ears were spared!"
I knew this release, The Rock, would spur consternation, and miss fan creations (as noted above), session leaks, who KNOWS what......I hope the producer, who posted in this thread, adds some behind the scenes.
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Let me propose this. Your favorite score (or a very much top one).
The composer completely reconfigures the piece, and misses The Cue I Needed.
Do you still respect that what they did was best for us....or get pissed you didn't get the option?
I'm not the type that would get upset because a (living) composer didn't give me something I "wanted" on an album release. The album release isn't about me. I'm just here to enjoy the music and indulge my hobby.
I respect that and was not trying to stir the pot....we have enough of that here.
Just saying, my feeling....leave the remastered, expanded sets to the fans who run our labels.
Those living, or Jerry, had their chance and version, often that which the general public knows and....hears.
Can you imagine TOTAL RECALL only existing as the 40min Varese program?
Fake proposed a 55min program, which surely would have been perfect. Yet....
Just something interesting to mull over.
Pace
-Sean
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Can you imagine TOTAL RECALL only existing as the 40min Varese program?
Fake proposed a 55min program, which surely would have been perfect. Yet....
Just something interesting to mull over.
Pace
-Sean
I think the disconnect with this example specifically is that you are singling out a release that was made after the composer's passing, whereas I'm specifically stating that if a composer is living i think it isn't a problem that they are involved with a re-issue of their own work.
True, so let me realign to ARMAGEDDON!
I was making a generalization (the 2 Horner titles) that he sired over, and edited.....which made more than a few people unhappy, DESPITE, joy we even got nice, clean legit releases.
There are several posts above that mourn a lack of a complete ARMAGEDDON, by living people.
Just due to...ego? Rights? Ego? Who could know.
THE ROCK, ARMAGGEDON....these are 30 odd year old, forgotten (to today's audience) projects. Why not break bread & just let it all out. They collaborated while scoring, why not dump a few thousand discs into the world, and know...a fee thousand, only, will hear it.
I respect & understand your stance, nuts, even though my points are rather fuzzy right now. Ironically, I have no dog in this fight. I'm mad Harper's The Chase isn't it's own track, so yet another album program cd I have to keep! I'll still buy this set.
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Let me propose this. Your favorite score (or a very much top one).
The composer completely reconfigures the piece, and misses The Cue I Needed.
Do you still respect that what they did was best for us....or get pissed you didn't get the option?
So, basically almost every 90's and early 00's score album?
Back in those days I was just glad we got a score album and I preferred 30 minutes of score over ZERO minutes of score to listen to.
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Posted: |
Oct 3, 2023 - 11:31 PM
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By: |
Thor
(Member)
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I endured the dark times of 30min "At Least We Got This".
Or The Golden Years, as I call them.
The composer should definitely be involved in the album production, to curate their creation, if he or she is alive. Unfortunately, in the last 10-15 years or so -- with the proliferation of unlimited, digital platforms -- it doesn't help that the composer is attached. Very often, he or she just "copy/pastes" their entire work onto a digital platform, could be 90 minutes or three hours, and basically says "here, create your own damn album!". It's ridiculous.
Thankfully, there are exceptions, like Rabin. Zimmer is one of the transgressors too, with certain "copy/paste" jobs in the last few years, but I was happy when he did a properly curated album for THE CREATOR just now.
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Posted: |
Oct 3, 2023 - 11:43 PM
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By: |
acathla
(Member)
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I endured the dark times of 30min "At Least We Got This".
Or The Golden Years, as I call them.
The composer should definitely be involved in the album production, to curate their creation, if he or she is alive. Unfortunately, in the last 10-15 years or so -- with the proliferation of unlimited, digital platforms -- it doesn't help that the composer is attached. Very often, he or she just "copy/pastes" their entire work onto a digital platform, could be 90 minutes or three hours, and basically says "here, create your own damn album!". It's ridiculous.
Thankfully, there are exceptions, like Rabin. Zimmer is one of the transgressors too, with certain "copy/paste" releases in the last few years, but I was happy when he did a properly curated album for THE CREATOR just now.
I never understood this meaning you have about getting short/curated albums...
You prefer to "risk" having your favorite cue from a movie you watch, say you fall in love with a certain cue and cant wait to listen to it on the score album, but oh wait, the composer does not agree and decides to not include it. You will never get to hear that cue you fell in love with. Do you prefer this situation? I'm sure it must have happened a thousand times??
Isnt it better to just get it all at once and make up your own decisions instead of letting the composer decide what you are supposed to like and not like? And to be able to make your own curated 30 minute album?
Dont get me wrong, I respect your opinion, but I just want to understand it! haha! 
And about THE CREATOR (which I cant get enough of btw!!)....I only saw the movie once, but isnt it pretty much the complete score? Only not in chronological order?
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Posted: |
Oct 3, 2023 - 11:53 PM
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By: |
Thor
(Member)
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never understood this meaning you have about getting short/curated albums...
You prefer to "risk" having your favorite cue from a movie you watch, say you fall in love with a certain cue and cant wait to listen to it on the score album, but oh wait, the composer does not agree and decides to not include it. You will never get to hear that cue you fell in love with. Do you prefer this situation?
It's not really relevant to me, and it never happens to me. I don't use the film as a point-of-departure for my soundtrack listening. They're just concept albums to me, independent artworks created by (hopefully) the composer based upon, and curated from, the raw material that is the film's score.
Isnt it better to just get it all at once and make up your own decisions instead of letting the composer decide what you are supposed to like and not like? And to be able to make your own curated 30 minute album?
No. First of all, it's work that I don't think I'm supposed to do (it would be like getting a car, but in pieces, and being asked to put it together myself). Second, it's work I don't really have time for. However, I do have a list of some 60-70 titles in my collection that need 'playlist whittling' at some point, a neverending task. Third, I think album creation is an artform. I can make playlists, but I'd much rather have the composer's or producer's take on their "own" creation.
And about THE CREATOR (which I cant get enough of btw!!)....I only saw the movie once, but isnt it pretty much the complete score? Only not in chronological order?
Could be. If so, it's like THE SON and THE SURVIVOR. An unintended benefit of not having too much score in the film.
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never understood this meaning you have about getting short/curated albums...
You prefer to "risk" having your favorite cue from a movie you watch, say you fall in love with a certain cue and cant wait to listen to it on the score album, but oh wait, the composer does not agree and decides to not include it. You will never get to hear that cue you fell in love with. Do you prefer this situation?
It's not really relevant to me, and it never happens to me
I happens a lot to me though, and presumably to other people as well.
Simply because I definitely notice music as music when watching a movie, always did. I know some people are unaware of the music as such when watching a movie, but that's usually not the case when I watch a movie. Music always trumps dialog for me as well, which is perhaps why I never had a problem with Christopher Nolan movies, where some people complain about the music drowning out the dialog. (Instead, I remember movies where I was annoyed by the loud dialog, because I couldn't here the music.) Even when I was child watching cartoons I was very aware of the music as such, so if I heard a piece of music in a movie that I liked, I would like to listen to that piece of music on its own. So when I watch a movie, the music is always a big part of my enjoyment of the movie.
Isnt it better to just get it all at once and make up your own decisions instead of letting the composer decide what you are supposed to like and not like? And to be able to make your own curated 30 minute album?
No. First of all, it's work that I don't think I'm supposed to do (it would be like getting a car, but in pieces, and being asked to put it together myself). Second, it's work I don't really have time for. However, I do have a list of some 60-70 titles in my collection that need 'playlist whittling' at some point, a neverending task.
But you do it. You're just doing it the other way around. All those longer albums had composers and record producers as well who decided which cues to put where. It's up to you if you want to listen to the album as presented or if you want to change the track order or shorten them. If you whittle away cues from a longer album because you want a shorter album, it's not different from people wanting to have a longer album and add cues to it. There is one major difference though: if you have a long album, you can easily shorten it. If the album is too short, you cannot lengthen it. So longer albums are always preferable, because so ALL potential listeners can get the album they prefer. It may annoy you that there are cues in the score you don't like, that's fine, but you can easily edit them out. If there are cues missing that should be there, the annoyance if far greater, because you cannot easily edit them in.
Third, I think album creation is an artform.
I think that's silly. Selecting tracks for an album from a pre-exisitng album (or film score) or making a playlist is not an "art form", or it if it is one, it is a menial one. I could easily create better albums than some of those earlier 30 minute versions, so would that make me a great artist? I don't think so. Arranging tracks on an album is not an art form, and it certainly is not an art form to itself. Anyone can do it (in fact, you are obviously doing it too), and anyone can add or drop tracks as someone sees fit. To do it well, ideally you have some musical knowledge and taste (something that at least some record producers are certainly lacking), but even if its done well it's not an "art" form.
I very much agree with Lukas Kendall on this, when he quoted Dan Hersch on the matter: "My friend Dan Hersch, the well-traveled mastering engineer, likes to say the two most overrated aspects of album production are the sequence (with regard to pop music) and the spaces between tracks—nobody really cares. It’s true: producers like to obsess over these because most of the time they didn’t write the music, they didn’t perform the music, they just want to insert their own authorship, and this is all that’s available to them."
That's pretty much how I see at least in some record producers and in the way some soundtrack albums are released. If it's done musically astute and with taste, by all means, I don't mind if someone thinks he found the "magic" order for tracks, but for the most part, it's just pompous to think it makes a big difference. I am not saying the album/track order does not matter -- it does -- but what I am saying is that in many cases, it's pretty easy to figure out the "perfect" oder for a score. That's especially true for classically constructed film scores (as in scores by Goldsmith), as the musical architecture often already reveals at least some logical progression of cues).
Just so there is no misunderstanding though, I really like how Hans Zimmer constructs many of his albums, with tracks segueing into each other, he often constructs nice albums that flow well, so Zimmer albums certainly don't have to be "C&C". I sure enjoy it if extra effort is made to construct a good album for listening experience. But even there one can easily see there is more than one way to put together an album (as the expanded INTERSTELLAR shows). I sure prefer the cue "Tick-Tock" (from the expanded release) over the cue "Mountains" (from the regular soundtrack album) if I could have only one of these cue. Fortunately, I can have both. :-)
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Posted: |
Oct 4, 2023 - 1:59 AM
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By: |
Thor
(Member)
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We disagree on the merits on album production, Nicolai, as we've discussed many times before. I've never subscribed to the "interactive" idea of creating albums, much like I don't subscribe to the interactive idea of making films or watching visual artworks. Or, in fact, putting any things together that are supposed to come in a finished state. I consume them, I don't create them. Obviously, in some cases I'm "forced" to make a playlist because there is no properly curated album. I don't like it, but it's an emergency situation -- better than listening to the C&C. But I will always, without exception, prefer a situation where the composer-producer has made an effort to reconceptualize the music (even if I think has flaws; that's part of art consumption -- one doesn't always agree with the creator's choices).
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