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Posted: |
May 12, 2024 - 3:45 AM
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By: |
Solium
(Member)
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They don’t seem to have a fundamental understanding of the universe. Maybe your friends do but to many of the projects demonstrates the IP is misunderstood or intentionally altered to fit a new narrative.
Solium, I'm not sure what fundamental lacking you're bemoaning, but of course you're welcome to your opinion. Personally, I like this universe, and am open to various interpretations. It can be many things, and some recent ones work great (I think "Andor" is fantastic, a show with no Jedi, but I'm hoping for good things from "The Acolyte," an all-Jedi show). Others are less to my taste ("Ahsoka" had promise, most of which went unrealized, I thought).
But I don't think "Star Wars" is or can be one thing. And it honestly never was. I'm old enough to remember the betrayal many fans felt when The Empire Strikes Back came out. Everybody piles on Disney, but under Lucas, "Star Wars" was three movies (revised later, with very mixed results), then three very different (to me, frustrating) movies, and also two terrible "Ewoks" TV movies, a weird animated "Droids" show, a "Clone Wars" animated movie and show that took a very long time to get its footing, and more (I'll leave out the holiday special, because that would be playing dirty).
Anyway, we all have our opinions, and they're all valid. I just wish people didn't default to the assumption that the projects we don't like are a product of contempt.
And that's all I have to say about the Indiana Jones 5 physical album.
I disagree, Star Wars can't be anything it wants to be. It's a western in space with Sheriffs and outlaws. It has a style of its own. Ive so checked out I don't even care to remember all the issues with the franchise since Disney purchased it. Well one thing immediately comes to mind, a Lightsaber is a lethal weapon and not a f'ing glow stick! As bad as the prequels were they're consistent with the tone of original trilogy. Yeah, I know they had a lot more slapstick and the action was overbearing but there was a clear framework. Its fundamentally about heroes and villains.
Andor which everyone raved about isn't Star Wars. Not in the slightest. And despite all the great things I heard about it, I thought it was horribly written and paced. It was really horrible. God was it horrible. I could write paragraphs about that mess but I won't bore you.
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I agree with your opinion that STAR WARS can not be anything. And as long as there is no revolutionary new film which does not use the force, lightsabers, Jedis and the Empire, I won’t believe otherwise.
But calling ANDOR horrible? You don’t like the approach to the „the Empire corrupts everyone to increase its power“-idea, fine. But the storytelling was absolutely sound.
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The Last Jedi which is by far the worst SW movie ever.
I can have conversations about the flaws of The Last Jedi, but I just can’t take this opinion seriously, especially when the prequel trilogy (to say nothing of the animated Clone Wars movie) exists.
I understand why the film is divisive I guess, but there are so many objectively strong elements of it. And at least Rian Johnson had a real vision besides just the nostalgia bait of the Abrams films on either side of it. For me it’s the best of the sequel trilogy by far and I wish he’d been able to make all three films rather than being stuck with the launching off point he was given from The Force Awakens and that haters bizarrely blame him for. It’s Abrams who decided to have Luke in exile and virtually absent from the first film, and not have the original trio together before they started being killed off.
Yavar
Nice to see someone looks at this film the same way I do. There was a genuine effort to shake up expectations and take the series in a bolder direction.
By the end of this film:
Kylo was the supreme leader.
Rey was a nobody
Finn fully embraced being a rebel and killed his tormentor
The resistance was down to a handful of people
Luke was a freaking human being with an interesting arc who gave his life to redeem himself and face his failure
Three years later:
Kylo was the puppet to the returning Palpatine and did the redemption arc again (sigh)
Rey was Palp's granddaughter (ewww)
Finn - what did he do again? Oh yeah, rode horses on a space ship and yelled "REY!" repeatedly.
The resistance now had a ton of people.
Lando appeared because they killed everyone else of and did the "on your left" bit from Avengers: Endgame.
It answered few, if any, questions posted in TFA ("the story for another time" about Luke's saber for example).
Worst offense: they bowed to the racist fan outcry to reduced Rose to a cameo.
The Last Jedi tried to be (for Star Wars) original and it angered a lot of fans.
TROS backpedaled and angered me.
None of them are perfect, but TLJ is still my favorite.
I get that the original trilogy wasn't meticulously plotted, but it did feel like a fairly consistent creative vision with a loose outline. This felt like "oh shit we have to have another movie out by May!"
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fans know and understand the source material, the folks at Disney don’t nor cared to.
I know I will never convince you of this, Solium. But some of the people who've done these new Star Wars projects are friends of mine. And they are absolutely devoted, passionate, long-time fans.
Don't get me wrong. Some recent Star Wars movies/shows have been quite good, I think, but some have definitely not been. Rise of Skywalker was the worst movie I've ever seen that didn't have the words "Patch" or "Adams" in the title. But don't confuse poor plotting with a lack of caring. Incompetence can exist without indifference.
I get Rise wasn’t that great, but the big reason was JJ was trying to get the story back on track after The Last Jedi which is by far the worst SW movie ever. It cared nothing for the story set up before it let alone the SW universe and who the original characters were. The plot made no sense, new characters introduced were boring and useless and it wasn’t much of a SW movie at that. Horrible. Why Rise gets so much hate and Last Jedi doesn’t makes no sense to me a lifelong fan-first movie I remember seeing in the theater was Star Wars in 1977. LJ is the worst.
You're right! "The Last Jedi" was a disaster in my eyes too and I've never expected, that there will be a "Star Wars"-movie one day, that I never want to see again! With TLJ it happened. We were approx. 25 people in the cinema and after the end, really nobody was happy. All were quiet angry, about the stupid Disney humor in particular, which was a vicarious embarrassment. Besides the script had scenes, that led to nowhere and other scenes, that didn't make sense and some characters were utterly unlikeable. Unfortunately this movie split up the fans in different factions as it happened with "Star Trek" 24 years ago. And in the "Star Wars"-universe a good movie - "Solo" - had to pay the price. Disneys "Star Wars" is a living on the edge at the moment. There are terrible movies like VII - IX and quiet goody movies and shows ("Solo", "Rogue One", "The Mandalorian", "Rebels"). Nevertheless "Star Wars"-fans should be concerned, that Disney runs the franchise into a brick wall.
P.S.: the box office crash of Indy 5 was well-deserved.
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Posted: |
May 12, 2024 - 3:52 PM
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By: |
SchiffyM
(Member)
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I loved "Andor." Found it riveting.
Of course, I understand some don't share my love. That's fine. But I find the "it's absolutely not Star Wars" argument to be weird, since it's very clearly Star Wars. It feels like declaring that you only like long skinny pasta, and therefore penne isn't pasta. You don't have to like it, but it is what it is.
As for The Last Jedi, it's certainly not perfect (the slow-speed chase with the First Order following the Resistance fleet never really works, the detour to the casino planet feels goofy, etc.), but it has some real surprises (something its very pleasant predecessor never had) and takes chances that made me sit up and take notice. I'm with Yavar and Scott, in retrospect it's the most interesting of the last three to me. (Oh, and J.J. Abrams executive produced it – it didn't happen to him.) To me, Rise of Skywalker is overstuffed and ludicrously plotted (a dagger that somehow points to the necessary room in the Death Star, Rey's dopey lineage, Kylo's turn from the figment of Han, and the properly mocked "Somehow, Palpatine returned"). A thousand spaceships fighting (while our heroes ride horses on Star Destroyers!) isn't exciting to me, it's just chaos. If you liked it, great! But I was relieved when it was over.
So, how about that Indiana Jones 5 physical album, guys?
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Posted: |
May 12, 2024 - 4:34 PM
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By: |
GoblinScore
(Member)
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It's a slog and sad shadow of the composer's heyday. Some seem to hear what they want, the composer still firing all cylinders.
Absolutely the most power to you folks (cheers henry!).
I do love Helene's theme, it has a wonderful noir-Barry-esque feel to it.
It might be the album sequence, because damn if this difficultly acquired thing (the cd) does not bog in the middle with JW dialogue scoring that put me to sleep.
Shame Ross' "Pulse of the City"(sic) couldn't be included....it would have revitalized the whole thing.
The well worth hearing isolated 4k, blu ray, track does enliven things (in that it's a gift to hear JW only, but there are more minutes of desd air than I imagined!)....but points up the revisits to the original trilogy. I was shocked at how much did make it to the cd, but important things are sorely missed. Indy in the file room, for example. Great suspense, dialogue scoring that should have made the album.
Go discover what your missing!
The legendary Disney cd is more a collectible than a classic Williams album.
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Posted: |
May 12, 2024 - 6:45 PM
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By: |
Solium
(Member)
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I loved "Andor." Found it riveting.
Of course, I understand some don't share my love. That's fine. But I find the "it's absolutely not Star Wars" argument to be weird, since it's very clearly Star Wars. It feels like declaring that you only like long skinny pasta, and therefore penne isn't pasta. You don't have to like it, but it is what it is.
Yes, the Rebels are a clan of self centered, self serving individuals who think nothing of betraying or murdering their own comrades. Everyone is in it for themselves. They force comrades to stay in the clan like its a cult. A mother pimps out her own teenage daughter for the cause. Never mind the Rebels plan was to piss off the Empire so they push them into crushing smaller planets in hopes those being massacred rebel. This series is so full of immoral and depraved characters. So as you see, your statement this series is clearly Star Wars is totally bewildering to me. I haven't even touched on the script and overall lack of an intelligent story. Like I said to your fellow fan, glad you enjoy the show, its not the Star Wars I was looking for.
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Posted: |
May 12, 2024 - 8:26 PM
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By: |
SchiffyM
(Member)
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Yes, the Rebels are a clan of self centered, self serving individuals who think nothing of betraying or murdering their own comrades. Everyone is in it for themselves. They force comrades to stay in the clan like its a cult. A mother pimps out her own teenage daughter for the cause. Never mind the Rebels plan was to piss off the Empire so they push them into crushing smaller planets in hopes those being massacred rebel. This series is so full of immoral and depraved characters. So as you see, your statement this series is clearly Star Wars is totally bewildering to me. I haven't even touched on the script and overall lack of an intelligent story. Like I said to your fellow fan, glad you enjoy the show, its not the Star Wars I was looking for.
"Not the Star Wars I was looking for" makes a lot more sense to me!
I understand now that you saw the Rebels portrayed here as unheroic. I did not. They are simply terrified, scattered and working in the shadows, unsure if they can even trust each other (and yes, some are trying to goad the Empire into further cruelty, hoping that will motivate more people to their side). Realizing the sacrifices they have to make for the cause actually makes them more heroic to me. It's not simply that many Bothans died off-screen, it's that they're putting their lives and their families on the line.
That's what I loved about it – it took something we've always taken at face value (Rebels good, Empire evil) and examined it as something that was real in a way we'd never seen before. It's not the that Empire is portrayed sympathetically – in fact, they're arguably more horrific in this show than they've ever been seen before – but you understand that they're not merely bad people with an enormous war machine, they're a crushing bureaucracy, their officers motivated by fear (and yes, sometimes a sadistic thirst for power). The Imperial Senate is a dying body of plutocrats who speak politely but whose every statement has a second meaning.
I found those insights rang true and made me think about that universe in a new way.
But that's me. And not you. And as I keep saying (tediously). that's fine!
(But it is Star Wars.)
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Right there with you, Schiffy. To me the grounded "real people" heroism of Andor was far more meaningful.
"Not the Star Wars I was looking for" is fair enough; can't argue with someone about what they want. That said, I think some of these statements are contradictory:
"Everyone is in it for themselves.... A mother pimps out her own teenage daughter for the cause."
In what way is Mon Mothma self-serving by doing this? If the claim is that she doesn't care about her daughter, I think that's clearly false. If she DOES care about her daughter and is marrying her off in order to support the Rebellion, isn't that her making a hard personal sacrifice for the greater cause? (I mean, potentially worse for her daughter who doesn't have a choice, fair.) Mon Mothma has a position of privilege as an Imperial Senator. She could easily live a comfortable life and not subject her daughter to that marriage. If she was "in it for herself", why wouldn't she just do that?
Same with Luthen -- he could clearly just live a comfortable life on Coruscant, and he is making EXTREME sacrifices to support the Rebellion. Yeah, in some ways he is sacrificing his morality... but it's for his belief in a better world for OTHERS. That is the very opposite of self-serving. I don't think he "thinks nothing" of "betraying or murdering" people. I think it kills him a little inside, every time. And that's just another sacrifice he is willing to make for the greater good of taking down the Empire. THAT is compelling writing.
And it's very true to the reality of resistance movements against empire in the real world, which certainly involve shades of moral greyness. If someone requires their Star Wars to be black-and-white, with a simple mythic hero's journey thing... well, I get it, because that's what the original movie is mostly centered upon. But it hints at more in the background, and things get a bit messier in the sequels.
Yavar
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