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 Posted:   Aug 9, 2021 - 8:02 AM   
 By:   Justin Boggan   (Member)

Yavar,

I am a long-time board member who's never been a fan of re-recording scores, so it goes without saying I have no interest in reading a fundraising page about it. I asked here for the only question I cared about and that does it for me.

Please note I made no comments in the above about re-recording a score where tapes are not to be found. People wrongfully conflate thoughts so often on here that I had to cover that basis.

 
 Posted:   Aug 9, 2021 - 8:55 AM   
 By:   Yavar Moradi   (Member)

No, I understood you fine Justin -- I just thought it was strange you took the time to type out that question when the answer lay at the very top of the Kickstarter. smile But no worries! I'm with you in that I prefer the significant funds dedicated to re-recordings be reserved for things which otherwise do not survive, at least in complete form (I was super grateful to get Mysterious Island in a complete new recording since the old recording was incomplete, for example. Same goes for Battle of Neretva, and even Tiomkin's The Alamo and The Fall of the Roman Empire from Prometheus).

moolik suggested Waxman's Prince Valiant above, which is a great score... but the complete score survives! And outside of a few damaged cues it even sounds pretty good. I think all that needs really is a Chris Malone restoration. If he could fix all the wow and other damage to Take Her, She's Mine, he can absolutely fix Prince Valiant. I'm really surprised Kritzerland didn't tackle a new edition of that like they did with Prince of Foxes, a vast improvement over another very early FSM Golden Age release...or Waxman's Demetrius and the Gladiators, which they also greatly improved over the FSM. Hopefully Intrada or LLL has a new and improved edition of Waxman's Prince Valiant in the works. I don't think we are likely to see any more Waxman re-recordings after Taras Bulba, arguably his greatest score, did so disappointingly sales-wise for Tadlow.

Yavar

 
 
 Posted:   Aug 9, 2021 - 9:13 AM   
 By:   friedhofer   (Member)

The "Gothic Prelude" re-recording from Joan of Arc, is now on youtube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bgO11YT5NQ


 
 Posted:   Aug 9, 2021 - 9:49 AM   
 By:   Yavar Moradi   (Member)

That's wonderful: thank you so much for putting it up for us again! Were you in any way responsible for it being performed/recorded, or were you in any way connected to that wonderful Hugo Friedhofer website which seems to have disappeared this past year?

Yavar

 
 Posted:   Aug 9, 2021 - 10:09 AM   
 By:   calbuth7   (Member)

The "Gothic Prelude" re-recording from Joan of Arc, is now on youtube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bgO11YT5NQ


Fantastic music ! Reminds me of Basil Poledouris’ Flesh and Blood.

 
 Posted:   Aug 9, 2021 - 11:12 AM   
 By:   Yavar Moradi   (Member)

So here's the thing: I agree with those who say that Joan of Arc is a long shot to get funded. Its costs are greater and its support would be less than this Goldsmith twofer -- which makes Black Patch/The Man a really smart pick on Intrada's part, for a project. BUT Joan of Arc isn't just a score we like; it is one of Doug Fake's favorite scores of all time and he's longed for a new recording for ages. Certain perks come with owning your own film music label, and I think Kickstarter at least gives Doug a reasonable avenue to *try* without being financially irresponsible to the future of Intrada. He could price it out, figure out it costs $80,000 (or whatever the number is), and just give it a go on Kickstarter. It might not get enough funding to cover the costs, in which case he could say, "Well, we tried!" Nobody like Cody or Basil could ever fault them again, for not trying.

Or, it could surprise and against all odds actually manage to get there, thanks either to more support/interest than expected (that Gothic Prelude modern performance sure is a GREAT way to sell folks on the idea! I think it would appeal to a lot of people who don't know Friedhofer from Adam) or to enough donors who have the means to give more generously (I'm talking several people giving $10,000 or more, each).

I honestly hope Intrada considers it as their next Kickstarter after this (it's true that the longer they wait, the less likely it probably is to succeed). And if it doesn't make it, oh well now we know, right? But Kickstarter doesn't take money unless something successfully funds, I'm pretty sure. So as long as reconstruction isn't started early, I don't think Intrada would necessarily have to be out (m)any funds, just a bit of time and effort to price the project and set up the Kickstarter. If it doesn't work, they can just transition to another option, like The Jungle Book, and see how that does instead.

Since Black Patch (albeit paired with Face of a Fugitive rather than The Man) and Joan of Arc were both included in Intrada's forum poll in 2018, we could even use the final $$ number of this Kickstarter as a way to predict how much support Joan of Arc *might* receive (obviously a lot of other factors make that a rough estimate, at best). But Joan of Arc got 46 votes while Black Patch received 76. That means that in the poll, the Friedhofer got 60.5% the support of the Goldsmith. So if this Black Patch / The Man Kickstarter somehow finished at $100,000, that might (very roughly) indicate that Joan of Arc could get $60,500... which probably wouldn't cover the considerably higher costs, considering the choir in particular. Again, other factors (like wealthy donors particularly interested in Joan of Arc) could absolutely play a role; this is just a rough guess based on their relative support in the poll here:
http://www.intrada.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=7967

Yavar

 
 Posted:   Aug 9, 2021 - 11:40 AM   
 By:   Valiant65   (Member)

Just made my pledge.

I'd found Black Patch on DVD, used, and liked the film and the minimal score as heard in the film.

Never seen The Man, so I've got to find that on YouTube.

Is it possible that by June '22 I'll have entirely forgot that this is coming at me?

It's time to get excited about something in this pandemic.

 
 Posted:   Aug 9, 2021 - 12:19 PM   
 By:   Nicolai P. Zwar   (Member)

No tapes for both (or not usable tapes) or is this just another case of people just want things to sounds like they were recorded yesterday?

Well, in an ideal world, all music sounds as if it is not recorded at all but performed live. smile
Given that the original recording stems from 1957, is likely mono and full of warp and hiss, I'd give a new recording a shot even if the old tapes were found and released. But I have zero attachment to the film score recording here, as I've not even seen the film. I'm in it for the music.

 
 Posted:   Aug 9, 2021 - 2:51 PM   
 By:   Yavar Moradi   (Member)

RED RIVER is an exciting score. I love the chorus work in the film.I love the showdown music when John Wayne is going to face-off with Montgomery Clift. There is so much to love in RED RIVER and I play it often. I thank Mr. Stromberg for recording it. I thank James Fitzpatrick and Luc at Prometheus for doing DUEL IN THE SUN.

My honest thanks for expanding on why you like the score. I'll expand on why I don't, and why I consider Black Patch far superior, both compositionally as well as dramatically as a film score:

I was fortunate enough to see Red River projected in a nice theater in one of my film classes at USC. Very well directed film with some good performances (mainly Montgomery Clift). There is psychological nuance to the drama which I unfortunately did not find reflected in Tiomkin's score. The chorus work seemed to be everyone just singing in unison; there were no interesting parts or arrangements like say Ken Darby's choral work on How the West Was Won by Alfred Newman. To my ears it was simplistic and repetitive with minimal variation throughout. The same goes for what I'd call the "cattle drive" music and the "Indian" motif. Oh, there are some cows on screen again? Let me just play you the exact same piece of music you heard previously several times, decided Tiomkin. There is little thematic development or transformation to speak of, only (many) reprises of the same material which felt cliched and uninteresting to me in the first place. But somehow I feel Jerry Goldsmith would have scored each cattle drive sequence with some new variation on his material, as he often did with his superb action music.

In Black Patch, despite being a score of roughly half the length, Goldsmith writes different thematic material for each of the four main characters, and varies this throughout to the point of it being unrecognizable at times. For example, his motif for Carl goes from playful and childish while he's first playing with Hank's gun which he inherited. But later as he reveals the practice has rendered him an expert, it becomes very forceful, threatening, ominous; one might not even notice it's the same idea (yeah, this stretched my disbelief and was one of the weaker parts of a film I generally thought was a very strong, nuanced and well-acted noir western).

Hank's theme also is quite varied, but the most varied by far is Clay's theme for the titular character with the Black Patch. It can play as a strident fanfare, a gorgeous and regretful lost love theme for the romantic scenes, and also plays in very different mysterioso fashion as Clay is doing some detective work sleuthing a murder that was committed. There is a great deal of subtlety to this score which might be missed if you only heard it once in the film. I think on album you might actually be surprised and enjoy it, Cody... much as you did Face of a Fugitive with Jerry Goldsmith wrote just the following year while he was still in his late 20s. Instead of insulting that score and people who liked it, you had this to say earlier this year:

"Received my copy today . Yavar brought attention to a good one and you guys at Intrada did some unearthing at the Columbia vault to bring this release to fruition. Glad you did."
https://filmscoremonthly.com/board/posts.cfm?pageID=1&forumID=1&threadID=143440&archive=0

What happened to that Cody, I'd like to know? I do personally think Face of a Fugitive might be the more consistently engaging score out of the two, but I think Black Patch has greater highlights including that versatile main theme for Clay -- strictly out of Goldsmith's top drawer IMO.

Tell me Yavar ,would you be upset if Mr.Stromberg recorded some scores in the future that weren't composed by Jerry Goldsmith.

Odd attempt at a "gotcha question"...the answer is: not in the slightest! In fact if Intrada had announced Joan of Arc or The Jungle Book for THIS new Kickstarter, I would have still been over the moon and enthusiastically anted in, first day. I would also have been enthusiastic about any of the Herrmann scores Bill suggested he wanted to do, or (as you know quite well) Schumann's incredible Night of the Hunter.

If they opted to do another Tiomkin score like say Shadow of a Doubt in particular, I would have been disappointed and probably not donated, this time around (maybe if it was The Old Man and the Sea). A Steiner or Victor Young score would be a maybe, depending on the score. Literally ANY Hugo Friedhofer I would enthusiastically support as a re-recording. Literally ANY Miklos Rozsa I would enthusiastically support as a re-recording, unless it had already been done well -- his early scores like Knight Without Armour or The Four Feathers I think are especially in need of recording as they just as fine as his later work, but are otherwise lost.

One day maybe I'll share an old suggestion list I made 18 years ago for my (new at the time) friend John Morgan, who did so many great reconstructions for Bill Stromberg to conduct. I think only one of them was a Goldsmith score -- The Wind and the Lion (because at the time it was supposed to be lost, in complete form).

I see you making plans for a Goldsmith takeover.

Certainly sounds nefarious! What would that look like, exactly, and how would I accomplish it? Kidnap Regina Fake and hold her ransom (thanks for the idea Basil) until Doug Fake agrees to only produce new Goldsmith recordings until the end of time? (Again, do you honestly think Doug Fake needs convincing to do anything by Jerry Goldsmith?)

Of course I'd love to have every single work of Goldsmith's recorded which is not otherwise available. He's my favorite composer and in my opinion his complete works should be available just as they are for Mozart, Beethoven, and Brahms. But I also feel that way about Miklos Rozsa, Hugo Friedhofer, Alfred Newman, Basil Poledouris, Elmer Bernstein, Roy Webb, and many others.

By the way, that YouTube track from BLACK PATCH is pretty,but is it worthy of a new recording ? Of course , you think so.

Not just me who thinks so -- about 300 other people so far, in only three days so far. I wonder how many other people will show they think so before this Kickstarter ends... thanks for listening to the YouTube video, anyway. To me it seems like exactly the kind of lush Golden Age scoring that would be right up your alley, but I suspect your bitterness over this not being Joan of Arc has soured you on something you otherwise might be able to celebrate on its own merits.

Yavar

 
 Posted:   Aug 9, 2021 - 2:56 PM   
 By:   Basil Wrathbone   (Member)

Joan of Arc got 46 votes while Black Patch received 76. That means that in the poll, the Friedhofer got 60.5% the support of the Goldsmith. So if this Black Patch / The Man Kickstarter somehow finished at $100,000, that might (very roughly) indicate that Joan of Arc could get $60,500.

Yavar




And that, ladies and gentlemen, illustrates the profound extent to which science and mathematics guide our ongoing quest to identify, finance, produce and promote future film music recordings.

 
 Posted:   Aug 9, 2021 - 3:01 PM   
 By:   Yavar Moradi   (Member)

And that, ladies and gentlemen, illustrates the profound extent to which science and mathematics guide our ongoing quest to identify, finance, produce and promote future film music recordings.

I'd like to see you attempt to finance a new film music recording without making any effort to predict its sales potential. smile I made it perfectly clear that I was merely attempting a rough estimate, based on some data we had. Here's another way we could do the math:

Dial M for Murder got 404 backers. If every one of those donated $100 for Joan of Arc as Cody suggests above (seems like a stretch), the total money raised would be $40,400 -- that wouldn't even have made the required goal ($45,000) for Dial M... and I believe Joan of Arc would be considerably more expensive to record than Dial M for Murder. I'm pretty sure it's both longer and written for a larger orchestra -- plus CHOIR, which adds a ton more expense. I wouldn't be surprised if Joan of Arc cost upwards of $80,000 to record, maybe more (don't forget that King of Kings cost about twice that amount; James Fitzpatrick just covered half or more of the cost himself). But then it IS an epic, after all!

Do you think 800+ people would give $100 each for Joan of Arc to be recorded? I very much doubt it. The possibility I was suggesting to Schiffy was that it could still be funded via Kickstarter if several very wealthy backers decided to give very generously (as they did for Dial M for Murder) to get it across the finish line. Somebody or other had that fancy website up for Hugo Friedhofer until a year or so ago (the one that had the whole Prelude from Joan of Arc posted -- thanks again to "friedhofer" here for putting it back up on YouTube for us all!) Whoever paid for that Friedhofer website to be made and maintained might be up for funding a recording of one of his best scores... but it would take something like that, I think. Friedhofer just isn't as popular as say Miklos Rozsa, so funding an expensive new recording of one of his most expensive-to-record scores is simply not a sure thing. But I still hope Intrada tries it in the future, since it's one of Doug's favorite scores and they presumably don't have much to lose by trying a Kickstarter -- either it will successfully get funded, or it will fail and they can say, "see, we tried! There weren't enough people to support it." But I absolutely don't think you should get your hopes up.

Yavar

 
 
 Posted:   Aug 9, 2021 - 3:54 PM   
 By:   villagardens553   (Member)

Though I've been around (i.e. born while Eisenhower was president) I have never heard Joan of Arc before playing the youtube piece. Magnificent. The Best Years of Our Lives is one of my favorite scores, and I'd love to hear more of Joan of Arc.

It's a shame that this score has never been released. I wonder if Charles Gerhardt ever had a Friedhofer project on his radar. Epic scores like this usually have seen the light of day in some format, even if it's a suite. Surprising that this never has.

I also think it's a shame--but a reality--that what gets released is based on composer name recognition because there are buyers, like me, guilty as anyone, who will buy anything released by certain composers regardless of the quality. So, lesser scores by Barry, Goldsmith, Williams, etc, will get released before a major work by a composer like Friedhofer. I bought Legend of the Lone Ranger because I'm a Barry fan, but it may be my least favorite of his works, and I'd trade it in for Joan of Arc if I could.

Makes me wonder what other completely unreleased great works are out there.

 
 Posted:   Aug 9, 2021 - 5:36 PM   
 By:   Yavar Moradi   (Member)

Just made my pledge.
I'd found Black Patch on DVD, used, and liked the film and the minimal score as heard in the film.


Glad you liked the film -- I did too! There are one or two elements I like less, but most of it I found pretty compelling and engaging. But then I like dark character dramas, which is what this is more than a "wide open spaces" type of western. It's a bit rough when compared to even a few episodes of the podcast later, but if you're interested in a conversation about both the film and the score, check out The Goldsmith Odyssey Episode 1:


https://goldsmithodyssey.buzzsprout.com/159614/656592-episode-1-black-patch-1957

Never seen The Man, so I've got to find that on YouTube.

Here you go -- IMO it's a pretty solid film:


It's time to get excited about something in this pandemic.

Thankfully we Goldsmith fans have had a lot to get excited about!

Yavar

 
 Posted:   Aug 9, 2021 - 6:18 PM   
 By:   SchiffyM   (Member)

I kinda forgot how this place worked when I took my sabbatical from it. Here we have something that seems so incredibly basic: A company made up of incredibly devoted film music fans (who could be you or me, if we had the energy to start our own label) offers an opportunity for like-minded fans to support (with very reasonable terms) a recording project some of them may have a similar passion for. If enough people want it, the album gets recorded, and everybody gets what they want. If not (because participation is entirely voluntary), then that’s the end of that.

And yet somehow, for some here, this is all seen as evidence of something sinister.

It's confusing to me.

 
 
 Posted:   Aug 9, 2021 - 6:30 PM   
 By:   Last Child   (Member)

Maybe because everything is tilted towards Goldsmith who is low-hanging fruit. If we're voting with our dollars, a more egalitarion approach might be to start several kickstarter campaigns at once and see which one(s) makes the target. Regardless of which one(s) make it, the losers could be re-run later since some fans might only support one title at a time.

 
 
 Posted:   Aug 9, 2021 - 6:38 PM   
 By:   cody1949   (Member)

Though I've been around (i.e. born while Eisenhower was president) I have never heard Joan of Arc before playing the youtube piece. Magnificent. The Best Years of Our Lives is one of my favorite scores, and I'd love to hear more of Joan of Arc.

It's a shame that this score has never been released. I wonder if Charles Gerhardt ever had a Friedhofer project on his radar. Epic scores like this usually have seen the light of day in some format, even if it's a suite. Surprising that this never has.

I also think it's a shame--but a reality--that what gets released is based on composer name recognition because there are buyers, like me, guilty as anyone, who will buy anything released by certain composers regardless of the quality. So, lesser scores by Barry, Goldsmith, Williams, etc, will get released before a major work by a composer like Friedhofer. I bought Legend of the Lone Ranger because I'm a Barry fan, but it may be my least favorite of his works, and I'd trade it in for Joan of Arc if I could.

Makes me wonder what other completely unreleased great works are out there.


Darn it ! I really wanted to take a sabbatical from this thread. I am tired of carrying the torch.
But I want to THANK YOU especially for your honesty in your third paragraph. It rings so true.
Bye !

 
 Posted:   Aug 9, 2021 - 6:43 PM   
 By:   Yavar Moradi   (Member)

“Low hanging fruit” = a rare re-recording project that *might* make back its investment? (I don’t think James Fitzpatrick would describe The Salamander or QBVII as “low hanging fruit”, i.e. easy, but I guess the two Thriller albums did very well.)

Yavar

 
 Posted:   Aug 10, 2021 - 2:24 AM   
 By:   Grimsdyke   (Member)

And yet somehow, for some here, this is all seen as evidence of something sinister.

It's confusing to me.


Certainly 'rigged' and I demand re-counts in Georgia and Arizona big grin

 
 
 Posted:   Aug 10, 2021 - 4:04 AM   
 By:   Katsoulas   (Member)

If I was intrada I will going to John Williams and I would ask for a donation about some classical scores of golden age. I am sure that he will give a lot of money for his favorite composers. After all the money who earns every year is 80.000.000 dollars

 
 Posted:   Aug 10, 2021 - 4:13 AM   
 By:   Nicolai P. Zwar   (Member)

I don't think there is any money to be made by recording classic film scores. These are passion projects. Personally, I loved the time when Intrada, Varése Sarabande, Tadlow, Prometheus, etc. all did splendid re-recordings of classic film scores. The better a score is, the more it deserves to be re-recorded. It's not just about sound quality, different performances often bring different aspects of a score into focus. I enjoy variety. When it comes to art, and especially music, I view music as a living, breathing thing, a creation of "moments"; I dislike the idea of any score being fixed on one recording and that's it.

Now, BLACK PATCH is definitely of great interest to me, it's Goldsmith's first feature film score. I have never seen the movie, but I'd presume even if the old tapes were found, they's most likely be mono, possibly even in poor sound of tapes generations removed from the master tapes. Nothing wrong with that per se, I have recordings much older than that in mono and old recordings can be very interesting. But can they ever bring full justice to the actual music score? I don't think so. So I very much welcome a re-recording of this score.

 
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