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Now of course we have to figure in that on these passion projects for Leigh, he is essentially donating his time and effort to reconstruct the scores, conduct the scores, and (after “Bar Mitzvah of Major Orlovsky” and “Sarah’s Laughter”) even handle lots of the post-production work himself. So maybe it’s just a bad comparison on my part! I realize that Perseverance has to pay a reconstructionist and conductor, and someone to master and edit the album.
Though doesn't have Leigh to get paid as well... somehow? I mean, all these CD releases and re-recordings by Intrada, Tadlow, all these Kickstarter campaigns etc are passion projects, but there are still bills to be paid and I don't know if all these folks involved are either incredibly wealthy or have so much spare time at their hand that they do these projects on the side.
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Like haines says above, I don't see the need to go all the way to Prague (expenses-wise) to record what might end up just being a 20+ minute score featuring 12 players.
Also, I doubt that many will be interested in a shorter suite/selection of cues from THE HAND. I know I'm not.
Are 'Seattle Symphony' still a thing?
I have stacks of albums by them, via Varese, which are pretty good.
Isn't one of the reasons they do this in Prague because they have good musicians there at a reasonable price? Not sure about Seattle, but booking the LSO or an LA orchestra for a full symphonic/film score recording, depending on the sessions and musicians you are quickly up to six figure numbers... that would be just for the orchestra. Even when you do a smaller scale score in Seattle, I don’t think it's cheaper to record in the US.
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There are also expenses for the various 'producers/players' travelling to Czech Republic for a week or so, which must be hiking up the costs of this venture?
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Is not the reality, that these two scores are just too obscure even for many hardcore Horner fans? There just isn't the interest.
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There are also expenses for the various 'producers/players' travelling to Czech Republic for a week or so, which must be hiking up the costs of this venture?
Yeah, but having these various producers/players travel to London or Seattle or L.A. isn't necessarily significantly cheaper.
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Maybe Perseverence should create a survey and ask for preferences? It is clear that a third attempt will probably fail, when I read the opinions here and on the German soundtrack board...
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Like haines says above, I don't see the need to go all the way to Prague (expenses-wise) to record what might end up just being a 20+ minute score featuring 12 players.
Also, I doubt that many will be interested in a shorter suite/selection of cues from THE HAND. I know I'm not.
Are 'Seattle Symphony' still a thing?
I have stacks of albums by them, via Varese, which are pretty good.
Isn't one of the reasons they do this in Prague because they have good musicians there at a reasonable price? Not sure about Seattle, but booking the LSO or an LA orchestra for a full symphonic/film score recording, depending on the sessions and musicians you are quickly up to six figure numbers... that would be just for the orchestra. Even when you do a smaller scale score in Seattle, I don’t think it's cheaper to record in the US.
Yes, for symphonic scores. The Dresser is not that. It's a small band and LA musicians are some of the best in the country.
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Hello,
Thank you all for your insightful comments.
As already mentioned before, a production such as this, consists of various elements/stages.
Each of these elements comes at a cost. The costliest ones are the score reconstruction, music preparation & recording sessions.
In the event of an LA recording based on figures suggested here, the recording sessions alone for THE DRESSER will cost approximately $8.5K.
Add to this figure the costs for reconstruction, music preparation, editing/mixing & mastering in both Stereo & Dolby Atmos, artwork, liner notes, CD manufacturing, shipping costs, travelling (bear in mind that wherever the recording will take place, as the orchestrator/producer of this score, I will have to be there - I’m based in Europe - same goes for Robin. I’m not including Gloria & Matt’s expenses etc. for the time being even though we strongly believe they are an integral part of this production), plus the KS 10% fees, and you’ll find out that it will cost at least $20K to cover the entire production, and that is with all participants working for a significant lesser fee.
About the score’s length and CD offering. The complete score to THE DRESSER is close to 25 minutes, including ALL music written and/or recorded for the film. There is no distinction between Grieg’s adaptation, the various versions of the Main Title, and the rest of the cues. They were all written/adapted for the film, hence, COMPLETE score re-recording.
We know that offering the score as a digital download only, is not enough. However, there is nothing we can do lengthen the score to justify the cost of the CD offering, which as mentioned before will be less than $25. Manufacturing cost remains the same despite the music’s duration. What can be done is have a limited number of copies on offer, reducing the cost, and based on demand, proceed accordingly.
In addition, there will be various stretch goals – one session at a time – to record selections from THE HAND. If all stretch goals are met, then THE HAND will be recorded in full! Even with a few cues recorded, the total length of the music will be significantly increased.
The second campaign was planned down to the tiniest detail, covering and presenting every detail, offering numerous rewards & add-ons, mock-ups of the music, making of videos, and the total length of music was north of 70 minutes, meeting everyone’s expectations. Furthermore, the crème de la crème of our industry is involved in the process, cementing the fact that this is going to be a stunning recording. Still there was doubt.
Finally. it was suggested that Perseverance should take on a smaller score first, start building a track record. This is what happens now. Same team, same rewards, significantly lower cost.
We are asking for your support, to make this happen!
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Same team, same rewards, significantly lower cost.
Significantly lower cost for the goal, yes, but not a significantly lower cost to *backers*. And it's not "same rewards" -- people are now looking at the prospect of only a 20 min. chamber score all on its own, rather than a packed CD with two scores. So in order to still get near the same number of backers, you need to have more reasonable base tier levels. And "same team" is a problem -- you need to make it leaner. You need to make this third try a sure bet to fund, if you want to start building a track record for future campaigns. That means making it appealing as well as having a practical goal.
I'm making another detailed post because Robin specifically solicited another round of feedback based on his new Round Three proposal(s)...so here's my further analysis and advice, based on those details:
For his Jerry Goldsmith at The General Electric Theater series of Kickstarters over the past couple years, Leigh Phillips regularly recorded chamber scores, often 11-12 players and up to 10 minutes in duration, in Prague... and each of these took a *half* session to record, even with him wanting to be very perfectionist about it. And Leigh is somewhat less experienced at professional film music conducting than Matt Dunkley (who frankly seems especially unnecessary overkill for a score of 11-12 players!) so probably needed a bit more time with the orchestra than he would.
So yeah... here's Leigh's original campaign from only two years ago:
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/lpfilmmusic/the-bar-mitzvah-of-major-orlovsky-jerry-goldsmith/description
About the same number of players. After he added the stretch goal of "Sarah's Laughter" because "The Bar Mitzvah of Major Orlovsky" funded less than 5 days into the campaign, his total combined goal to get both chamber scores recorded (almost 19 minutes in length, together) in Prague was £3600. Accounting for inflation, that's about £3960 today, or approximately $5,000 USD. Now again, Leigh did the reconstruction (for Bar Mitzvah) and preparation (for Sarah's Laughter, which was easier for him because we had found written music for it -- as you have on The Dresser!) and conducting pro bono, but that amount at the time also was to cover mixing/mastering fees (some of this Leigh also personally handled on later campaigns to futher save money).
Now... I personally love having alternates included when they already exist as recording and are easy to fit in. But I don't think a lot of people consider them absolutely essential to include in a "complete" rerecording. James Fitzpatrick didn't include every single alternate on all those complete Rozsa recordings he did like Ben-Hur (the latter of which DID feature some wonderful cues which weren't in the film and weren't even originally recorded, so weren't on the mammoth 5CD FSM set). I don't remember anyone complaining that the Tadlow Ben-Hur wasn't 3 or even 4 CDs like it could have been. They still considered it "complete" at 2CDs.
So I'm with haineshisway and others on this, adding some of my own suggestions to keep the cost down to an *actual* minimum:
1. Record The Dresser in a SINGLE full session, not TWO sessions as Robin suggested in his detailed post a couple days ago. Leigh has even told me that Prague occasionally records much more than 20 minutes in a full session, but that it's not ideal. But he *regularly* records 10 minutes of music in a half session. So... pick the BEST version of the Main Title cue to *definitely* record. Save it for the end of the session, maybe. And then record as *many* of the remaining three alternate versions as you have time remaining to do, in that session. If you only get to record one interesting alternate, that's fine. If you don't have time to record *any* alternates but only the film version, I think people will more than understand at this point, to give the campaign the best shot at success by having a lower goal. But having a single session instead of two should save a good chunk of money.
2. Record using Prague-based conductor and soloist(s), if the savings recording a 11-13 player score there are actually significant. You and Robin keep insisting, even now, that Matt Dunkley and Gloria Cheng are somehow integral to this project. While I understand it would be nice to have them (just as it would be nice to get a Dolby Atmos recording, or Blu-ray Audio disc), it is just not realistic at this point -- going into a THIRD super pared-down attempt -- to treat them as essential. I know you don't want to disappoint them after already getting them on board, but you really need to tell them that their involvement will be contingent upon some stretch goals being reached, to cover their transportation and lodging expenses as well as their fees. Somehow after two substantially failed attempts that didn't even cross 40% funded, I think they will understand. The fact that you and Robin keep stubbornly holding onto having celebrity LA-based musicians go out to Prague as an essential part of the process just really makes it seem like you are determined to shoot yourselves in the foot and aren't learning.
3. Just let The Hand go, for now. I know that you've already put some work in preparing it. I know that some folks are more interested in it than The Dresser. But it is substantially more expensive with the considerably larger orchestra including blaster beam, even if it you do it in stretch goal chunks. And several people have expressed that they aren't very interested in ending up with chunks of the score either. So save your stretch goals for Matt Dunkley, Gloria Cheng, and Dolby Atmos, if you care about those things. Or better yet, do some of the more-affordable-to-record Horner concert works that you were interested in on the first campaign -- you even prepared a mockup of at least one of those, as I recall! These are for smaller forces than The Hand and sometimes even smaller forces than The Dresser, and would be much more affordable to record (unlike The Hand they could even be done in L.A., if you decided to go with haineshisway's suggestion). They would be a great way to get the play length of your album to half an hour or more, so that people find a CD edition more appealing. Save The Hand for a FUTURE campaign of its own, IF this one is successful!
We are seeing feedback from multiple people in this thread who are losing interest based on the diminishing returns. $35 for a 2CD 140 min. set is a GREAT deal... but your goal was far too high on that to happen.
$30 for a 1CD with both The Hand and The Dresser was perfectly reasonable, but the goal was still higher than any previous successful campaign, from labels like Tadlow and Intrada with much more substantial track records on new recordings.
You need to realize that asking $25 for what boils down to a 20 minute chamber score of 11-13 players really isn't likely to get as many backers as $30 for a full CD did in this second round. Yeah, you *almost* hit $25,000 this recent time but it's very likely you won't get that much if you're offering much less. The per-unit cost manufacturing CDs isn't *that* high and Intrada's able to offer CDs for $20, even including free shipping in the US, for their latest campaign which is for a 45 minute score (+ potential half hour score stretch goal add-on resulting in a packed disc). You need to make backing your campaign enticing still, even if it's just The Dresser (possibly padded out with some concert work premieres to pad it to half an hour or more with modest stretch goals).
What's your explanation for Robin's $20 tier ask which only covers a download, only, of the short chamber score? No CD manufacturing costs there, and no shipping! Again, for 18.5 minutes of lossless Goldsmith premieres to download on his first GE Theater campaign, Leigh had the base tier at only £6 and easily funded in less than five days, because he also set a reasonable low goal amount! For a 20 min. chamber score of Horner's, I would say a $10-12 (TOPS) ask for the download-only tier is reasonable. And if you could go below $20, say even $19, for the CD edition... I think you'd get more takers.
Yes, people spent $22 outright to get the 26 minute score for Goldsmith's Shamus from Intrada, but that was already recorded and they knew they were just making a straight purchase... and frankly maybe Goldsmith is just more popular sales-wise than Horner. Asking $25 for a Horner score for 12 players that's only 20 min. long unless three extra Main Title alternates are included? Yeah, I'll go in one more time but I can well understand why others here are losing interest.
Yavar
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@Yavar
Thank you for your detailed post. I couldn’t leave this unanswered, so I apologize in advance for the length to each one of the members here. It will be the last one of that size.
You keep insisting, even now, comparing projects from different labels, and artists, based on obvious similarities such as number of players, length of music, etc. when the reality is different. Also, you are calling us names, e.g. stubborn, for making decisions that you might not agree with, offering solutions in an authoritative, and frankly patronizing, manner.
I won't talk on Leigh's behalf (being a dear friend and colleague), however, since you brought up that he personally handled the reconstruction, conducting, editing/mixing of the scores, no CD offering [only digital download], how this is even remotely similar to THE DRESSER recording, when each of the aforementioned tasks are going to be handled and paid for by several professionals? Also, traveling for myself and Robin to Prague or LA or wherever?
How can you be so sure that the entire score can be recorded in a SINGLE SESSION instead of TWO? Don't you think that we have already considered it, and discussed it with the orchestra in detail prior to proposing the number of sessions needed? Also, based on what logic, Matt Dunkley is an overkill for a score of 11-12 players? Less players = more detailed and nuanced performances = a conductor who has seen and done it all and consistently delivers stunning results.
Maybe the reason other producers and labels didn't use every alternate cue in the recordings you've mentioned is because there was already an abundance of music to record that one more cue might have altered the entire production from a logistical point of view, e.g. extra session, 3rd disc, etc.
With such a short and intimate score, THE DRESSER is, we have enough room to include every single note written and allow me to disagree that most people will say no or won't be interested in having every note written and/or arranged for any score.
The Dolby Atmos offering is NOT a recording. Is being done during the mixing phase. While it is a niche offering, it is something that we could try on and we got a lot of positive feedback about it.
I specifically said that the costs covering Matt's and Gloria's fees/expenses ARE NOT included in the price tag discussed in my previous post. Also, who told you that 1) we are looking out for celebrity musicians and not professionals we have been working with for years and trust, who happen to be the best at what they do, and 2) they are all LA-based?
Why let THE HAND go - for which I've spent countless hours putting together over a period of 6 months, and not only 'some work' - when we can offer if as several stretch goals, leaving it up to the backers to decide? The MAIN GOAL is THE DRESSER! A concert piece requires TWO more SESSIONS, one for rehearsal, one for recording!
I've also mentioned TWICE that the CD will be priced less than $25, most likely $20. It can't go lower than that because it won't be possible to cover production costs for the entire project. In addition, if we manage to get funds for one of the stretch goals, even though the duration of music will be significantly increased, the price tag will remain at $20.
From what I see – since you keep bringing up other labels' projects – Intrada is also offering separately Digital Download & CD for $20 each. Same in previous campaigns ($30). All their campaigns are covering recording costs only, nothing else, which one can only assume everything else they cover themselves, hence, they have the means whereas other labels don’t. Is there any specific explanation there for that price tag? As for Leigh, per your analysis, he only had to cover recording session costs, nothing else, which I assume justifies the low-price tag.
Finally, I do not understand the logic behind the "Yes, people spent $22 outright to get the 26 minute score for Goldsmith's Shamus from Intrada, but that was already recorded and they knew they were just making a straight purchase." People, should they have the means, will spend $20 to have a 20+ minute previously unreleased Horner score recorded.
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Like haines says above, I don't see the need to go all the way to Prague (expenses-wise) to record what might end up just being a 20+ minute score featuring 12 players.
Also, I doubt that many will be interested in a shorter suite/selection of cues from THE HAND. I know I'm not.
Are 'Seattle Symphony' still a thing?
I have stacks of albums by them, via Varese, which are pretty good.
Isn't one of the reasons they do this in Prague because they have good musicians there at a reasonable price? Not sure about Seattle, but booking the LSO or an LA orchestra for a full symphonic/film score recording, depending on the sessions and musicians you are quickly up to six figure numbers... that would be just for the orchestra. Even when you do a smaller scale score in Seattle, I don’t think it's cheaper to record in the US.
Yes, for symphonic scores. The Dresser is not that. It's a small band and LA musicians are some of the best in the country.
Oh, sure, no doubt, L.A. musicians are great, their quality was not in question. But I don't see how it would be cheaper to fly and host everyone involved to L.A. than to fly them to Prague. Depends of course where they are all located.
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@Yavar
Thank you for your detailed post. I couldn’t leave this unanswered, so I apologize in advance for the length to each one of the members here. It will be the last one of that size.
I appreciate the prompt response. It's really not that long a post (about the same size as your previous one, and shorter than Robin's recent one). And it's perfectly understandable considering the length of my own post (yes, I know I am often guilty of this and some people just skip over what I write). I'll address point by point, with apologies to those who find that annoying:
You keep insisting, even now, comparing projects from different labels, and artists, based on obvious similarities such as number of players, length of music, etc. when the reality is different.
I'm talking about the true *necessary* costs of recording The Dresser, so the variables and comparisons I brought up based on number of players and length of music are relevant. Are you saying Horner's score for The Dresser is considerably more complex and time consuming for professional musicians to record than Goldsmith GE Theater scores? I don't think it is. Maybe if there was some epic length cue in the score like 6+ minutes long that you wanted to capture in a single take, I could understand that. But I don't think there are any such Horner cues in this small intimate score.
Also, you are calling us names, e.g. stubborn, for making decisions that you might not agree with, offering solutions in an authoritative, and frankly patronizing, manner.
Observing stubbornness is not name-calling. You and Robin don't want to lose the work already done on The Hand. I get that, but... how shall I say this a different way? Sometimes it's possible to persevere too much in a course that's already set, rather than charting a substantially new course.
I won't talk on Leigh's behalf (being a dear friend and colleague), however, since you brought up that he personally handled the reconstruction, conducting, editing/mixing of the scores, no CD offering [only digital download], how this is even remotely similar to THE DRESSER recording, when each of the aforementioned tasks are going to be handled and paid for by several professionals?
I took care to acknowledge that difference. So fine, forget my comparison with Leigh's first Kickstarter campaign to record a similar amount of music for similar forces. You've just given us figures for a more expensive L.A. recording:
In the event of an LA recording based on figures suggested here, the recording sessions alone for THE DRESSER will cost approximately $8.5K.
Robin in his post said this new campaign would be $25K (which Redux didn't even manage to hit, recently, despite having much more reward for each tier). So, how does the remaining $16,500 break down then? That's almost TWICE as much as the recording itself would cost, in expensive L.A.! And Matt Dunkley and Gloria Cheng live and work in L.A. if I'm not mistaken, so none of that $16,500 would be taken up by covering their round trip international plane tickets and lodging.
Also, traveling for myself and Robin to Prague or LA or wherever?
Well... whether L.A. ends up making more sense than Prague, have you maybe considered overseeing the session remotely? This kind of practice was already well in place before Covid, but it's really taken off since then. I understand that's far from ideal, and that you and Robin want to be there in person. But maybe let that depend on how much backing you actually get, if you want this to happen? I know big name Hollywood composers who don't actually attend the recording sessions of their new scores because of budgetary considerations.
How can you be so sure that the entire score can be recorded in a SINGLE SESSION instead of TWO? Don't you think that we have already considered it, and discussed it with the orchestra in detail prior to proposing the number of sessions needed?
Those considerations seem to have been made when you were expecting a great deal more support than you've received. So maybe you need to reconsider and reassess? Why are you so sure that it can't be?
I know that Leigh Phillips can record 20 minutes of Goldsmith music written for a similar ensemble in a full Prague session. The only variable is perhaps complexity of music, and at least to my ears, the enticing samples you've posted from The Dresser do not make it sound like a particularly complex score. But if it is, please tell me how.
Also, based on what logic, Matt Dunkley is an overkill for a score of 11-12 players? Less players = more detailed and nuanced performances = a conductor who has seen and done it all and consistently delivers stunning results.
I don't dispute that he's seen and done it all and delivers stunning results. I dispute that a Prague-based conductor couldn't also fit those qualifications, much more affordably, so that this third campaign attempt is more likely to achieve success.
Maybe the reason other producers and labels didn't use every alternate cue in the recordings you've mentioned is because there was already an abundance of music to record that one more cue might have altered the entire production from a logistical point of view, e.g. extra session, 3rd disc, etc.
Yes, this is exactly what I'm suggesting with THE DRESSER: that omitting three Main Title alternates from the lineup to record (unless there's unexpected extra time) would presumably allow you to capture all of the score proper (around 20 minutes) in a single session, therefore saving a lot of money that would be spent on an entire other session.
With such a short and intimate score, THE DRESSER is, we have enough room to include every single note written and allow me to disagree that most people will say no or won't be interested in having every note written and/or arranged for any score.
But you're not disagreeing with me, because I never said that. Ideally I think we'd love to hear all the alternates! I know I would. But if it's the difference between keeping the recording project to a single session or not, I think that I (and most Horner fans) would be willing to sacrifice three Main Title alternates in order to have a more achievable goal in place. I'll reiterate: if you *overshoot* your goal, huzzah! Now you can add an extra half session or whatever to make sure you have time to cover those alternates. But if treating the alternates as essential to re-record makes the goal a couple thousand dollars higher and results in the campaign not funding, then I don't think any Horner fans are going to thank you for insisting they had to be re-recorded too.
The Dolby Atmos offering is NOT a recording. Is being done during the mixing phase. While it is a niche offering, it is something that we could try on and we got a lot of positive feedback about it.
I remember, and I support it in general... UNLESS it is adding unnecessary expense to a third (and probably final?) attempt after two previous attempts have already failed without even hitting 40% funded!
I specifically said that the costs covering Matt's and Gloria's fees/expenses ARE NOT included in the price tag discussed in my previous post.
My post was not a direct response to only what you wrote, but a combined reply to you and Robin. Robin had already made fairly clear a couple days back that the third campaign attempt was going to have a goal of $25,000 and that amount was still covering Matt and Gloria's involvement.
Also, who told you that 1) we are looking out for celebrity musicians and not professionals we have been working with for years and trust, who happen to be the best at what they do, and 2) they are all LA-based?
I guess Robin did, in the original campaign, treat Matt Dunkley and Gloria Cheng as some degree of film music royalty. A big deal was made about their involvement, as if their names really meant something. I know Gloria is based in L.A. -- I lived there for many years and know she's a Hollywood session musician. If I am incorrect about Matt and he's actually based out of L.A., I apologize for my assumption. (So where is he based, then?)
Why let THE HAND go - for which I've spent countless hours putting together over a period of 6 months, and not only 'some work' - when we can offer if as several stretch goals, leaving it up to the backers to decide?
Because:
1) even for a few cues for The Hand to be recorded, a much larger orchestra is required (which rules out the LA recording possibility I guess, if you want Gloria and Matt's involvement to be more practically affordable).
2) nobody in this thread at least seems very excited at the prospect of stretch goals to record a few cues at a time from The Hand. In fact several people have chimed in to say that prospect makes them less excited.
The MAIN GOAL is THE DRESSER! A concert piece requires TWO more SESSIONS, one for rehearsal, one for recording!
Some of the described concert pieces are very short, for very small ensemble of just a handful of players. Are you sure there are no smaller chamber works that could make for more modest stretch goals? Also, putting together an ensemble of only five players or so is going to result in considerably less expensive sessions.
I've also mentioned TWICE that the CD will be priced less than $25, most likely $20. It can't go lower than that because it won't be possible to cover production costs for the entire project. In addition, if we manage to get funds for one of the stretch goals, even though the duration of music will be significantly increased, the price tag will remain at $20.
Yes I understand that. Robin's post of a couple days ago said $25 for CD, and $20 for download. I'll still go in on that for a ~20 min. chamber score like The Dresser, but I fear that many people will not. As Gandalf said to Bilbo, "I'm trying to HELP you." Maybe I'm wrong. Robin seemed to be inviting feedback when he asked what people here thought. So I've attempted to give well thought out feedback, because I want this to succeed. You don't have to take my advice, but it's been offered in the interests of your success.
From what I see – since you keep bringing up other labels' projects – Intrada is also offering separately Digital Download & CD for $20 each.
That's not for a proposed album program of only ~20 minutes. That's for a main score around 45 minutes long, for a much larger orchestra besides (probably at least 4-5 times the ensemble size for The Dresser). And as with your point above re: your stretch goals for The Hand, it'll still be $20 for a CD, shipped, if the bonus score (a stretch goal of only $8,000) gets added on, which would result in a 70+ minute CD.
All their campaigns are covering recording costs only, nothing else, which one can only assume everything else they cover themselves, hence, they have the means whereas other labels don’t. Is there any specific explanation there for that price tag? As for Leigh, per your analysis, he only had to cover recording session costs, nothing else, which I assume justifies the low-price tag.
And it boggles my mind that for your campaign, even if recorded in L.A. the base recording session costs ($8,500) only make up a third of the amount of money Robin has said he's planning to set as the goal ($25,000). I am trying, with my three suggestions above, to offer suggestions (as painful as they may be) that could substantially lower that goal. I've now offered a fourth suggestion in this post: supervise the session remotely. Again, I know it's not ideal. But it would be better than a new recording of The Dresser not happening at all... right?
Finally, I do not understand the logic behind the "Yes, people spent $22 outright to get the 26 minute score for Goldsmith's Shamus from Intrada, but that was already recorded and they knew they were just making a straight purchase." People, should they have the means, will spend $20 to have a 20+ minute previously unreleased Horner score recorded.
We've seen repeatedly that there is a smaller niche audience for Kickstarter, compared with who is willing to simply purchase a CD outright from Intrada's website. Roger and others at Intrada have commented on this several times, asking: "Why, if you're willing to spend X amount of money on a CD release from our website are you not willing to spend the same amount of money on what amounts to a pre-order through Kickstarter?" I'm not sure we've arrived at a conclusive reason for this, but it is a very real phenomena and I'm saying that something about having a straight purchase just seems to be more appealing to more people. Intrada's Goldsmith twofer campaign ended just shy of 500 backers, but they frequently sell Goldsmith titles on their website in far greater quantities.
OOF. Sorry for that monster of a reply post, Niki and everybody. I'll pipe down again now. I just very much want this venture to succeed and I think some harder choices need to be made to ensure that.
Yavar
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I'm sorry Yavar, but we have very different views on every point you've made, so lets just agree to disagree. You've also misread quite a few things!
A couple of thoughts though (not all necessarily directed at you):
I highly doubt you've been asking the same questions to other labels, in such detail and manner, to the point of straight-up doubting their decisions as to how many sessions they need, complexity of the scores, names and musicians involved, budget etc., demanding a justification. Also you seem to repeatedly missing one important point. Everyone involved on this project is a professional, with years of experience on the subject. Each decision is based on that experience, along with careful planning, and not on speculations and simple comparisons.
We are not running these campaigns for the fun of it, but because we deeply care about the art of film music and putting out there scores that might never see the light of day otherwise, something that requires a high level of dedication and hard work. That's why I am fully supporting Perseverance's decision to run this campaign a 3rd time, even though Robin knows the risk of not being able to run another one should this one fails again.
Finally, I'd like to address something that is bugging me for sometime now, which I believe is the reason for keep throwing a spanner in the works.
I keep reading about Perseverance's past controversies, and frankly this is getting old. It seems like people are holding a grudge on mistakes made in the past, which I believe have been rectified since (correct me if I'm wrong), and they don't let go.
You keep repeating about building a track record, and even though there is an opportunity to do exactly that, there is doubt every step of the way.
Bottom line is that a number of people within the industry, including Sara Horner herself, and film music royalty (a title they deservedly earned despite an underlying condescending tone) like Matt & Gloria, entrusted Robin with the task of putting together a very ambitious project.
That alone, should give the label the benefit of the doubt, and should have been enough to support these projects, and leave the past where it belongs. In the past!
In any case, I will most definitely help Robin to give it his best shot one more time. I sincerely hope everyone else will do the same!
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I'm sorry Yavar, but we have very different views on every point you've made, so lets just agree to disagree.
That's fine. All of my criticism is meant to be constructive, to give this third (and probably final) attempt the best chance of actually succeeding. And that means keeping tier levels as appealing as possible, in terms of value for money, and making the goal as achievable as possible. I really don't believe (and don't want to believe) that this venture could fail just because James Horner isn't popular enough. I want to believe that certain things can be fixed/improved in order to make this a success.
I honestly do wish the campaign all the best, and will even be pledging again despite my stated concerns. But I know of other film music friends of mine who unfortunately will not be pledging for the third round for various reasons. Some of them because they do not have good feelings towards Perseverance. I would like people to give Robin the benefit of the doubt, especially in light of the Horner Estate's involvement, but it's not like I have the power to convince them if they have developed a negative impression, fairly or unfairly. As I've said before, I cherish a number of Perserverance releases, including especially their most controversial (Slipstream).
Yavar
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Posted: |
Jul 2, 2024 - 2:50 AM
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By: |
Diederik
(Member)
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Hi all, I am a long time visitor and reader of this forum, but don't post often. This Kickstarter seems to be kicking up some dust and the discussion resonates with me.
Orchestrator_ mentions the apparant lack of trust in Perserverence Records for mistakes of the past. I understand that it must be frustrating to keep reading feedback about how to better organize your campaign, when you put your best effort into it. That must be hard to deal with. In the Netherlands we have a saying: "trust comes by foot and leaves by horse". Meaning that trust takes a lot of time to build and is difficult to restore once broken. That's hard work.
A fundamental issue that's not been addressed much, is that whith Kickstarter you don't ask people to buy or pre-order a CD, you ask people to invest in your project up front so you can get it realised. There's no garantee that it will. So yes, you ask people to trust you with their hard-earned money to get this over the finish line (delivering the promised goods, i.e. the CD or download). A trust that at least in parts of the film score community needs to be build back.
And there this campaign is failing for me. It doesn't indicate to me why I can trust the organizers in actually getting this done. It offers highly ambitious goals and collaborations - far above any other previous film score campaigns - that seem to be miles apart from the image (part of) the potential investors have about the organizers. Claiming industry heros support your project doesn't sound like a good investment proposal, to me it sounds like a salesman overselling his product. To me, more and more is an indicator of a smaller chance of success. More to manage, more to go wrong. And now you're dramatically scaling back, to a point where people don't understand anymore what they're actually getting in return for their investment.
At least it's holding me off from investing, even though I would love to hear these scores newly recorded.
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Just adding my opinion to this and seeing that Chris Young’s Nosferatu barely made its goal and Intrada’s Abbott & Costello Meet Frankenstein has yet to reach 50% with about 2 weeks left I think ambitions would have to be considerably scaled down to make it happen.
That said, it doesn’t make sense to split them up unless the priority was given to The Hand with The Dresser being a stretch goal given its length. I do also concur that recording in LA would probably make way more sense financially and potentially give more opportunities for in person attendance if space permits however, virtual is still a viable option to have if reasonably priced.
Either way I wish all the best with the project and hope you see it to fruition.
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Hello again,
It is only fair when you're asking people to support your project with their hard earned money (I am 100% with you on this), to take into consideration their comments and suggestions. However, constantly doubting the label's/production team every decision every step of the way, by dwelling on something that happened years ago that could (and did) lead to unfair comparisons, dismissing the efforts of an entire team - none of them had any part in this, and their professional experience accumulated over decades working on several projects, is hardly constructive. On the contrary, it puts every potential contributor's interest off, especially when entire threads are spent on such discussions instead of bringing people together to make this happen.
The investment proposal is the music itself. Early scores by a composer who needs no introduction, never been released, and they may never will, unless this project comes to fruition.
It is not a claim that industry people support this endeavor. It is a fact. Their involvement - most importantly the Estate's - and the fact that they trust this project enough to put their name and hard earned reputation on it, IS the indicator why this project, with the proper funding, can and will be successful.
The scaling back part, is a direct result of actually listening to people's suggestions, trying to make this project a reality. And even now, there are still comments and doubts about it.
The best way to find out if Perseverance and the team behind this project will deliver, is by actually giving this project a chance. That's how you build trust. By trusting.
EDIT: WE never wanted to split the scores up. We are forced to as there wasn't enough support to make them both happen. The recording session costs alone, whether in LA or Prague, for both scores are approximately $50K. People don't seem to understand that's how much it costs, and that we're not making up these numbers. As a result we failed to meet the 2nd campaign's $68.5K goal (including KS's 10% fee which is almost $7K), a campaign planned down to the tiniest detail with an abundance of rewards and add-ons.
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I do also concur that recording in LA would probably make way more sense financially and potentially give more opportunities for in person attendance if space permits however, virtual is still a viable option to have if reasonably priced.
I don't see why L.A. would be cheaper than Prague? Are flights to L.A. cheaper than to Prague? Are hotels cheaper there? Unless many of the people involved are located in L.A., which does not seem to be the case, I don’t see why L.A. would be the place to record.
(And yes, as stated, I know L.A. musicians are first rate. Quality is not the issue.)
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