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 Posted:   Aug 24, 2011 - 12:42 AM   
 By:   Steve Johnson   (Member)

Mine should get here Saturday.


eekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeek

big grin

 
 Posted:   Aug 24, 2011 - 1:11 AM   
 By:   MerM   (Member)

Thursday/Friday for me. smile

 
 Posted:   Aug 24, 2011 - 2:29 AM   
 By:   Jehannum   (Member)

His range is VERY limited compared to other film composers: there's familiar Bond-style scoring in The Black Hole, e.g. And many of his post-1975 "schmaltz" scores are very similar indeed.

Sure, the melodies change. They do that with EVERY composer and score when a film is not a sequel of another one. Barry was always a good melodist, even if the melodies themselves are, again, limited to certain types. Like Miklós Rózsa once said of Max Steiner when asked what he liked about his colleague's music. Rózsa had to think very hard, then said: "He has a good melodic sense" [Then a pause] "A good popular melodic sense". I'm quoting from memory here.

But the range of technical devices in Barry is very limited indeed, the bag of tricks is a small one.

Listen how he goes for short suspense motives in parts of The Black Hole. It's like a kindergarden version of Bernard Herrmann. He just cannot make it work (few composers can, admittedly).


As a big fan of John Barry I agree with the first part of your argument: JB's range is more limited than some of his contemporaries. He's obviously not a jack of all trades, but he's the master of more than one.

As for the suspense music in The Black Hole, I've never heard it, but your comments are obviously subjective anyway.

But what's your point? Every John Barry fan knows what his range is. You can't change the fact that we love his music, whatever argument you use.

To me it's his mastery of the romantic melodic score that I love, along with his earlier 60s pop music, and those fantastic 'spy jazz' themes.

I can get endless variety from other composers. I get great melodies from John Barry, so I'm happy.

 
 Posted:   Aug 24, 2011 - 2:32 AM   
 By:   barryfan1   (Member)

Who are the real Barry fanatics on this board ? I know there is Alex Kline, Steve Woolston, Peter Greenhill, Dave Norris I think and me. I hope I spelled your names right and sorry to all those I am unaware of. WHO ELSE IS THERE ? Sorry cult of Jerry fans, Goldsmith is great, but John Barry rules !

Hi scrapsly,

You can add me to that list of Barry Fanatics (my handle and avatar kind of give it away, LOL).
I'm in the UK and have been a dedicated Barry fan since '71 when I heard The Persuaders theme, and I just started to seek out his other stuff, joining up the dots if you like.

This has been a landmark year for Barry releases with La La Land's The Golden Child, and now Intrada/Disney giving us The Black Hole in complete form. I too have been waiting for 32 years for an expanded release of this, so I can't wait for mine to arrive!

For the record, I love Goldsmith, Williams, Morricone, Despalt, Giacchino, Grusin, Schifrin, Frontiere, (Barry) Gray, and many others too, but it's Barry I love and collect above everyone else.

Mike (Copping)

 
 Posted:   Aug 24, 2011 - 2:54 AM   
 By:   goldsmith-rulez   (Member)

As for the suspense music in The Black Hole, I've never heard it, but your comments are obviously subjective anyway.

No, they're not.

But what's your point? Every John Barry fan knows what his range is. You can't change the fact that we love his music, whatever argument you use.

I was giving my impressions and evaluation of what I heard on the Intrada samples site, just like everyone else. This is not a "Barry fans only" thread, it's an open discussion forum. If it were called "composer-admiration/obsession/anal fixation-only" forum, I would not participate. wink

As such, my "point" is: discussion.

To me it's his mastery of the romantic melodic score that I love, along with his earlier 60s pop music, and those fantastic 'spy jazz' themes.

I said so myself on various occasions. Those are his strong suits (although his pre-mid 70s "romantic" music is much more interesting and less standardized than his later scores in that idiom).

 
 Posted:   Aug 24, 2011 - 2:57 AM   
 By:   Stephen Woolston   (Member)

It is true that John Barry worked in a much narrower range than some composers.

Gosh, his stylistic range was even nearly as narrow as ... Bernard Herrmann's.

Now, why do I evoke His name? Because I think it makes the point that having a dinstinctive style (a niche style) that becomes your trade mark is not the proof-you-are-hapless thing goldsmith-rulez seems to suggest.

In fact, dissing John Barry because he works in a signature musical style would be like calling Sean Connery a bad actor, because he acts in a signature acting style.

Indeed, there's a motto: play to your strengths.

People who try to be the jack of all trades tend to end up masters of none.

John Barry and Bernard Herrmann are extremely good in their niches. And that's where they played. That's how they got noticed. That's how they got repeat work. That's how they became highly sought after. That's how they became immensely popular.

Now, let's make the obvious comparison. Barry versus Goldsmith. Jerry Goldsmith is one of maybe only a few composers who was a jack of all trades and a master of some. I've always admired Goldsmith for that. But although I consistently 'wow' at Goldsmith's range, diversity and the sheer number of terrific scores, I like the John Barry niche better.

Niches are not bad things. When it comes to things that play to John Barry's niche (like, say, Out Of Africa), nobody does it better. I believe even Jerry Goldsmith said that.

There's a reason John Barry became huge. And it's not because he was this limited hack writing totally ineffective music.

To get albums which sell like Dances With Wolves, Out Of Africa and Somewhere In Time, you've got to be good at something. (Even The Black Hole. That was a huge LP in its day.)

Besides, John Barry's range is actually wider than you give him credit for. He was writing some of the best jazz scores of the 1960s at the same time he was writing some of the best bleak drama. He wrote some of the best romantic scores ever. He could write whimsy in films like The Knack and Follow Me, then write choral classics for The Lion In Winter and The Last Valley. He could write 'pop' harmonica tunes for Midnight Cowboy and then write ghostly strings for Walkabout.

In short. I do agree Barry operated in a range. Not as narrow as you make out, though. However I disagree it proves anything negative. If anything, his range was his strength, not his weakness. It's a lesson to composers who want to make it: discover what you're uniquely good at and find out what really works and do more of it. The Barry devices really worked and he used them. In fact, many of the music devices we associate with Barry are what many today would call 'classic scoring'.

You don't get to be that influential by writing crap.

Cheers

 
 Posted:   Aug 24, 2011 - 3:09 AM   
 By:   goldsmith-rulez   (Member)

A niche becomes a limitation if you try to work in all kinds of genres and types of film but lack the resources to adjust accordingly to make it work every time.

In that, and many other senses, Bernard Herrmann was so NOT a niche composer. He is a good example of a composer with a clearly discernible style who at the same time was the greatest experimenter among film composers. As such, your comparison with Barry, who was just limited in his resources, is completely misleading.

If you really think like that your understanding of the art and technique of music composition is very simple indeed.

Barry's strengths, and weaknesses, are very evident in The Black Hole, and that's what I wanted to point out. There's no harm in that, except to those who not so much admire his music (for a reason) than are childishly enamoured with it. There's a difference, don't you think?

 
 Posted:   Aug 24, 2011 - 3:18 AM   
 By:   MusicMad   (Member)

Hi Stephen ... and others,

I think you're wasting your time seeking to have goldsmith-rulez review his opinions - he very much nailed his flag to the mast when he first appeared on this forum ... in the period immediately after Mr. Barry's death.

I foolishly tried to argue with him at that time and now regret being part of a discussion in a thread which included posts challenging Mr. Barry's talents at a time when we fans were seeking to show our appreciation of his life work and offer our condolences.

I feel sorry for him and those of a like mind. Similarly, I'm sorry that I don't like the music of The Beatles, to name one group, as those that do say it has brought them much pleasure over the years. He doesn't rate Mr. Barry's music ... so be it.

You and I and many, many others, have enjoyed John Barry's music for many years - I doubt I shall go to my grave with any other view - and we should leave people with differing views to their own ... I don't block his posts but I have no intention of ever responding to them again.

 
 Posted:   Aug 24, 2011 - 3:24 AM   
 By:   goldsmith-rulez   (Member)

I feel sorry for him and those of a like mind. Similarly, I'm sorry that I don't like the music of The Beatles, to name one group, as those that do say it has brought them much pleasure over the years. He doesn't rate Mr. Barry's music ... so be it.

And that's where you ("and others") are so completely wrong. I do enjoy Barry for his strengths, and I listen to what I perceive as his best work fairly regularly. Unlike some, that doesn't change the fact that I try to "rate", or rather measure, music objectively like every other art. It's a discipline, you know.

LIKE and RATE are different categories, and many "fans" don't seem to be able to see that. If it's just "I like" and "I don't like", then ANY discussion comes to a swift and fairly pointless end.

 
 Posted:   Aug 24, 2011 - 3:27 AM   
 By:   Thomas   (Member)

A niche becomes a limitation if you try to work in all kinds of genres and types of film but lack the resources to adjust accordingly to make it work every time.

In that, and many other senses, Bernard Herrmann was so NOT a niche composer. He is a good example of a composer with a clearly discernible style who at the same time was the greatest experimenter among film composers. As such, your comparison with Barry, who was just limited in his resources, is completely misleading.

If you really think like that your understanding of the art and technique of music composition is very simple indeed.

Barry's strengths, and weaknesses, are very evident in The Black Hole, and that's what I wanted to point out. There's no harm in that, except to those who not so much admire his music (for a reason) than are childishly enamoured with it. There's a difference, don't you think?


Goldsmith-rulez (your name says it all!), why do you keep participating in these JB threads simply to criticise his music? You done the same in the RIP thread a few months ago, and as Im sure you intended, managed to derail it (granted, my response to you wasnt the most thoughtful either). We all know you views by now, your not a fan of JB, you think Goldsmith is better, cant you just leave it at that without continually spouting your nonsense?

 
 Posted:   Aug 24, 2011 - 3:29 AM   
 By:   goldsmith-rulez   (Member)

Please explain how my critique of certain elements in Barry's music is "nonsense"?

It's the "New Intrada: The Black Hole" thread. Not the "The Black Hole Admiration and Adulation - Please declare your love of John Barry" thread.

You need to loosen up a little in your fixation. Come off it and accept SOME counterpoint.

And, btw, my nick won't tell you anything unless you knew me - which you don't. My nick is in fact a kind of "apology" to the genius of JG, which I failed to reckognize in my earliest years of film music interest and now want to make up for. wink

 
 Posted:   Aug 24, 2011 - 4:05 AM   
 By:   Stephen Woolston   (Member)

Well, I for one do not want to see this thread degenerate into an argument with goldsmith-rulez about whether John Barry was any good at composing for films.

Goldsmith-rulez would have us believe that John Barry is a one-trick pony who never adapts what he's doing to the film at hand. Yes, everything sounds like Out Of Africa doesn't it. Like The Lion In Winter, Midnight Cowboy, Petulia, Body Heat, The Knack, Jagged Edge, etc. Personally, I see Barry demonstrating plenty of ability to adapt to the film at hand. Though I will concede, in his latter years he did stick to a style.

Anyway, this is one of those cases where the people involved have their own mind on the matter and the appeals from both sides that the other is wrong doesn't get anybody anywhere.

Goldsmith-rulez, if you want to start a debate on your contention that John Barry was a poor film composer, create a thread for it. Let's keep this one about The Black Hole.

Cheers

 
 Posted:   Aug 24, 2011 - 4:06 AM   
 By:   goldsmith-rulez   (Member)

I did keep it about The Black Hole, it's the fanboys that derailed it. wink

It's one of those cases where the people involved have their own mind on the matter and the appeals from both sides don't get anybody anywhere.

Like when the church maintained that the earth was flat. Same argumentation.

 
 
 Posted:   Aug 24, 2011 - 4:09 AM   
 By:   BasilFawlty   (Member)

eekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeekeek



"ALEX!"

 
 Posted:   Aug 24, 2011 - 4:11 AM   
 By:   Moonie   (Member)

This is a good score I ordered it , Barry is not my favorite but he is in the top 10 with me , in some ways all film composers Rule , and lets face without them we wouldnt be here , so less talk about bad stuff and keep it positive , many love this score and Barry . NO TROLLS smile

 
 Posted:   Aug 24, 2011 - 4:15 AM   
 By:   goldsmith-rulez   (Member)

in some ways all film composers Rule , and lets face without them we wouldnt be here , so less talk about bad stuff and keep it positive , many love this score and Barry . NO TROLLS smile

Sigh - everything "positive" is good, everything critical is "trolling". Were it that the world was that simple.

 
 Posted:   Aug 24, 2011 - 4:15 AM   
 By:   Stephen Woolston   (Member)

LOL, I love it when someone with the name 'goldsmith-rulez' accuses people of being fanboys you can't argue with. That's priceless.

Anyway, I'm engaging with no more of this. I'm happy to discuss The Black Hole and it's strengths and weaknesses. And I have no problem with unfavourable critiques, that's all fair game in the discussion too. However, I'm really not interested in going round and around and around in a heels-dug-in, repetitious, nobody-getting-anywhere tug-of-war over whether John Barry was any good at composing for films or not. That one's pointless.

Cheers

 
 Posted:   Aug 24, 2011 - 4:18 AM   
 By:   goldsmith-rulez   (Member)

Obviously, you didn't read my note above why I chose that nick. It was a gesture, nothing more.

Too bad your thinking is so simplistic.

But I agree on this: Let's have no more of it. Clearly, the hardcore(!) JB fans are like their "master". wink

 
 Posted:   Aug 24, 2011 - 4:40 AM   
 By:   Moonie   (Member)

in some ways all film composers Rule , and lets face without them we wouldnt be here , so less talk about bad stuff and keep it positive , many love this score and Barry . NO TROLLS smile

Sigh - everything "positive" is good, everything critical is "trolling". Were it that the world was that simple.



I guess thats where my , " Moonie Loves Everything" comes from , and I guess in a way I do or Im past hump hump 40 ish wink , and my taste have mellowed, being critital has its merrits and I need to learn to let people voice their negative opinions as well , just as long as it doesnt get violent as it does sometimes here.
Probably good we live all over the world , hehe, anyway we dont live in a simple world and we cope , carry on smile

 
 
 Posted:   Aug 24, 2011 - 6:33 AM   
 By:   jigawatts   (Member)

Well, I'm waiting patiently for my CD to arrive (ok, maybe not patiently, but I am waiting), and am listening to the samples over and over. Comparing the samples to the iTunes release is like a night and day difference. I just can't get over all the little nuances and details that you can hear in this new release, little details that I had never heard before. Intrada wasn't kidding when they described it as "stunning stereo". I can't wait to listen to the quiet passages at the beginning, especially Cygnus Floating in its entirety. And I love the artwork they used for the cover. I can't wait to read the booklet. This looks like an absolutely perfect release.

 
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