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 Posted:   Apr 18, 2013 - 1:27 PM   
 By:   DavidCorkum   (Member)

I'm definitely driven to hear all of his work and if that makes me a bottle cap collector so be it--that doesn't mean I adore every bottle cap, I'm just fascinated by finding out how each bottle cap fits into the larger portrait.

(This thread has gone off topic, but anyhoo...) I've collected everything released of Goldsmith's and while I certainly find some scores more entertaining than others, I've become so accustomed to his musical "voice", that hearing it from every slightly different direction, having it applied to different subjects, is always at least interesting, if not necessarily involving. Regardless of how one perceives his shifts in styles or complexity, he remained consistent in his ability to find the right voice for every movie. From Patton to Angie, he always wrote the right score.

I think the lack of respect he might have had in scoring light dramas and comedies might have stemmed from the fact that he had peers in other composers that could handle the subject matters as well, as opposed to action and films with odd combination of elements (I was just thinking the other day, Man I wish he had done Westworld), where he had few or any peers. Lots of people could have scored IQ, but nobody else could have come up with Planet of the Apes. But technically he scored each as well.

 
 Posted:   Apr 18, 2013 - 1:31 PM   
 By:   Jeff Bond   (Member)

Definitely the function of music has changed. If you look at old Star Trek, the music was doing an incredible amount of work in just suggesting that they were really out there in space--the music was carrying more of the load of that than the special effects. And you used to have music portraying psychological violence because movie characters couldn't swear as much, or suggesting physical violence because you couldn't show that much blood onscreen. A lot of the previous functions of music have become unnecessary, so to me a lot of current film music just has no life outside the movie theater. It doesn't suggest a narrative--that's why I loved Williams' War Horse score even though most critics (and even a lot of collectors) trashed it--it's one of the few recent scores that had its own narrative and drama outside the film. So that's probably why I'll always gravitate toward the period when Goldsmith was writing and still making that kind of contribution to a film, the kind that had its own life outside the movie.

 
 Posted:   Apr 18, 2013 - 1:41 PM   
 By:   BornOfAJackal   (Member)

And one correction--on Lawrence of Arabia, apparently the tapes aren't lost, they've just been in legal limbo forever--so until that changes, the Tadlow rerecording is still the best option for experiencing the complete score outside the movie.

Jeff, I got the Soundtrack CD in the LAWRENCE blu-ray box set, and it's all-too-obvious it was transferred from later-generation sources. I just find it hard to believe that Sony would go to the Nth degree to restore LAWRENCE digitally, but wouldn't pony up for the score session masters. But whadda I know?

 
 Posted:   Apr 18, 2013 - 1:46 PM   
 By:   DavidCorkum   (Member)

Definitely the function of music has changed.

So you view current films as being so aggressive and visceral, that generally having a score to provide emotional or narrative emphasis isn't as necessary? Maybe the very concept of film scoring is starting to get old fashioned. Yikes.

 
 Posted:   Apr 18, 2013 - 2:35 PM   
 By:   Jeff Bond   (Member)

Yes, but this has been going on for decades. You can find examples of composers (Elmer Bernstein, for example) remarking about how directors are afraid to have anything expressly emotional in the music for their movies--and that remark was made quite a few years ago. Unfortunately audiences often feel the same way and reject music that's done in the way we collectors might want it to be done in--they're used to listening to other kinds of music, not orchestral music, and so to them it sounds old fashioned or overly manipulative whenever they hear a melody or an expressive instrumental performance. Plus obviously music itself has changed--most of us grew up hearing modernist music in film, romantic music--for a while World Music became the language of film and there's still a lot of influence of that although I think it's waning. It makes sense that we would not be getting mordernist music, a 20th Century idiom, in 21st Century film--even though a lot of modernist techniques can still be effective. But other things will come along to replace some of that language. On the other hand, there are still some universal musical ideas that speak to people. Is that vague enough? smile

 
 
 Posted:   Apr 18, 2013 - 2:45 PM   
 By:   Chris Avis   (Member)

Definitely the function of music has changed. If you look at old Star Trek, the music was doing an incredible amount of work in just suggesting that they were really out there in space--the music was carrying more of the load of that than the special effects. And you used to have music portraying psychological violence because movie characters couldn't swear as much, or suggesting physical violence because you couldn't show that much blood onscreen. A lot of the previous functions of music have become unnecessary, so to me a lot of current film music just has no life outside the movie theater. It doesn't suggest a narrative--that's why I loved Williams' War Horse score even though most critics (and even a lot of collectors) trashed it--it's one of the few recent scores that had its own narrative and drama outside the film. So that's probably why I'll always gravitate toward the period when Goldsmith was writing and still making that kind of contribution to a film, the kind that had its own life outside the movie.

I think some of Goldsmith's later scores still do this to an effect. If I listen to something like The Edge or Medicine Man or First Knight, those are top drawer scores that manage to strongly convey the emotional narrative musically (in the latter case doing a much better job of the emotional heavy lifting than the film itself). I would agree that these type of scores are fewer and farther between in Goldsmith's work from the later 80s onwards, but they didn't totally vanish. I'd include at least 2 or 3 scores from this period in my top 10 Goldsmith list. But I do get where you're coming from and agree with you to a fair extent.

I would also say that the quality of films Jerry was given to score was substantially higher in his early career than in his later career and while Jerry sure managed to give some turkeys some fantastic scores, I can't believe that working on a high-quality film wouldn't help a composer bring his A game.

Chris.

 
 Posted:   Apr 18, 2013 - 2:58 PM   
 By:   BornOfAJackal   (Member)

Unfortunately audiences often feel the same way and reject music that's done in the way we collectors might want it to be done in--they're used to listening to other kinds of music, not orchestral music, and so to them it sounds old fashioned or overly manipulative whenever they hear a melody or an expressive instrumental performance.

I think the Golden and Silver Age stuff is still considered too "canon" by contemporary audiences and more than a few composers. We aficionados of the '50s-'70s scores have done very well at creating a genre bubble for ourselves where continual remastering keeps peeling off layers of sonic mud.

If Korngold and Steiner were considered passe by audiences by the late '50s, I'd say Goldsmith, Jarre, Barry and J. Williams have, over the past two decades, been shunted into the same category by newer audiences that have heard way too many pastiches of their work.

But we're still close to the beginning of a cycle of reassessment with all the hi-def remasterings of both films and scores of the Golden and Silver Age. I think there will be a concomitant reinvigoration of future work as the younglings grasp what we've given up since then.

 
 Posted:   Apr 18, 2013 - 6:32 PM   
 By:   Tom Servo   (Member)

Now enjoying my copy of this stellar recording... wow, Fitzpatrick and the CoPPO really have done a fantastic job with this score. I have only known of this film by reputation, always seeing it listed on those expansive Goldsmith filmographies, but never heard one note of its music. This score really is a great companion piece to others of that era, such as THE BOYS FROM BRAZIL, CABOBLANCO and OUTLAND. I am loving it. I was also surprised at how the electronics in "Torture" really capture that unnerving quality that at one time could only be found in original film recordings. According to the notes, Leigh Phillips is credited with "vintage keyboards", so we have even more reason to thank him!

 
 Posted:   Apr 18, 2013 - 8:48 PM   
 By:   Jeff Bond   (Member)

I hope he has enough vintage keyboards to do Damnation Alley and Satan Bug some day.

I don't think Goldsmith ever gave up trying to add "commentary" to his work either--he streamlined his style, he cut back on the elaborate nature of some of his work, but I think he was still in there trying to add something, just doing it in a more restrained way than he used to. It's more current works where I just don't see as much of that going on.

 
 
 Posted:   Apr 18, 2013 - 10:02 PM   
 By:   .   (Member)

A lot of the previous functions of music have become unnecessary, so to me a lot of current film music just has no life outside the movie theater. It doesn't suggest a narrative


Could say the same about scripts. Because there's no room for any narrative worth mentioning in most of today's action blockbusters, we might say fine scriptwriting is unnecessary.
But it wouldn't be true. I'd say the NEED for excellent scripts and fine scores has never been greater than it is now. It's the talent that is missing, not the need.

 
 Posted:   Apr 18, 2013 - 10:36 PM   
 By:   SchiffyM   (Member)

A lot of the previous functions of music have become unnecessary, so to me a lot of current film music just has no life outside the movie theater. It doesn't suggest a narrative

Could say the same about scripts. Because there's no room for any narrative worth mentioning in most of today's action blockbusters, we might say fine scriptwriting is unnecessary.
But it wouldn't be true. I'd say the NEED for excellent scripts and fine scores has never been greater than it is now. It's the talent that is missing, not the need.


I think you missed Jeff's point. The function that music served for decades has become superfluous for many films as technology and techniques have advanced. For instance, pounding music no longer has to make a guy in a monster suit seem terrifying -- the effects do that on their own. I don't see the comparison to screenwriting as being at all apt.

Of course, there are creative choices to be made, and styles change, and these are also reasons for the changes in contemporary film scores vs. those decades ago. But you wouldn't have us believe that young composers simply don't know how to compose anymore -- and that veterans somehow forgot how to do it -- would you?

 
 Posted:   Apr 18, 2013 - 10:48 PM   
 By:   The Mutant   (Member)

I hope he has enough vintage keyboards to do Damnation Alley and Satan Bug some day.

That would be a dream come true.

 
 Posted:   Apr 19, 2013 - 2:15 AM   
 By:   Octoberman   (Member)

I believe this is what he was talking about when he famously mentioned writing "what the fuck is going on music"...

Did he actually say that somewhere? How did I miss that?! Where did you read that? or , am I missing a joke?


It's a quote from Goldsmith's audio commentary on the DVD to Hollow Man, referring to the music at the end of the opening credits where a rat is munched by an invisible cat.



What the deuce? I thought it was the invisible ape!
Oh, this ageing mind of mine!
Wasn't there also a "digital" breast, or was I imagining that too?

 
 
 Posted:   Apr 19, 2013 - 3:28 AM   
 By:   .   (Member)

For instance, pounding music no longer has to make a guy in a monster suit seem terrifying -- the effects do that on their own.



There's more pounding and banging in film music now then ever before! In many cases that's ALL there is. Listen to the new Evil Dead as the latest example. Makes Herrmann's monster-suited Gort music sound subtle in comparison.
Scores have never been more incessantly brash than in recent years. And the special effects are so loud and endless, they demand the score be even louder, for longer.

 
 Posted:   Apr 19, 2013 - 3:39 PM   
 By:   The Mutant   (Member)

:-0

The jock-strap fight. Wtf?
http://djokovicthewinner.blogspot.ca/2012/11/good-morning-world_28.html

 
 
 Posted:   Apr 19, 2013 - 5:34 PM   
 By:   pp312   (Member)


There's more pounding and banging in film music now then ever before!


Ha! Not even just films. It's just as bad in TV current affairs, dating and cooking shows! I can't hear what the hell anyone's saying for the drums. Neighbours fenceline encroaching on yours? Bang some drums. Dropped your souffle in the middle of the bakeoff? Bang more drums. Discovered that the local council is secretly overcharging ratepayers? Bang all the drums you like. I don't know who invented the electronic drum machine, but he's in for a hard time if I get hold of him.

 
 Posted:   Apr 19, 2013 - 8:31 PM   
 By:   Mr. Jack   (Member)

For instance, pounding music no longer has to make a guy in a monster suit seem terrifying -- the effects do that on their own.



There's more pounding and banging in film music now then ever before! In many cases that's ALL there is. Listen to the new Evil Dead as the latest example. Makes Herrmann's monster-suited Gort music sound subtle in comparison.
Scores have never been more incessantly brash than in recent years. And the special effects are so loud and endless, they demand the score be even louder, for longer.



Yeah, but even the brashest horror and action scores of years past had some actual melody and thought to them. I'm reminded of what Lukas said when he reviewed Zimmer's Crimson Tide eighteen years ago, "Zimmer creates tension through bluntness, not intricacy." Something like John Corigliano's Altered States is certainly an atonal assault, but it's also music, dammit.

 
 
 Posted:   Apr 23, 2013 - 7:49 PM   
 By:   rickO   (Member)

I thought I would chime in again....

I just watched this movie for the first time. I probably would not have if not for Goldsmith's music. The movie is very bad. Quite dull in fact...

The score works well. The performance and quality is much better ....

FROM TADLOW!

Yes, the re-recording is superior (in my opinion of course).

It sounds more lush, clear, and better performed.

Does anybody know what orchestra performed the original?

-Rick O.

 
 
 Posted:   Apr 23, 2013 - 7:57 PM   
 By:   RM Eastman   (Member)

?

 
 Posted:   Apr 23, 2013 - 10:16 PM   
 By:   The Mutant   (Member)

I cannot stop listening to this CD.

 
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