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 Posted:   Nov 6, 2018 - 5:58 AM   
 By:   OnyaBirri   (Member)

I love the classic original panel, with Arlene Francis, Dorothy Kilgallen, Bennett Cerf, and usually Steve Allen.

 
 Posted:   Nov 6, 2018 - 7:51 AM   
 By:   Jim Phelps   (Member)

I love the classic original panel, with Arlene Francis, Dorothy Kilgallen, Bennett Cerf, and usually Steve Allen.

It took me some time to warm up to Arlene Francis, but they're all great.

Earlier in the thread a remark was made regarding Kilgallen's looks, but I think she's adorable (Frank Sinatra certainly didn't think so). smile

 
 Posted:   Nov 8, 2018 - 4:11 AM   
 By:   Jim Phelps   (Member)

Currently, I'm "inhabiting" the world of 1961, and several episodes in I can safely state that TV personalities would not be this classy again.

 
 Posted:   Nov 8, 2018 - 11:12 AM   
 By:   Eric Paddon   (Member)

Dorothy Kilgallen passed away 53 years ago this morning just hours after her final WML appearance.



This was a mini-documentary I put together on Dorothy's feud with Jack Paar (I made one error in that I no longer have evidence Dorothy ever said anything about the appearance of Paar's daughter. That was another columnist).

 
 Posted:   Nov 9, 2018 - 3:29 AM   
 By:   Jim Phelps   (Member)

Thanks, Eric. I'll watch those this weekend, though my John (Charles) Daly-style tux is in the wash. wink

 
 Posted:   Nov 9, 2018 - 6:59 AM   
 By:   jackfu   (Member)

Yes, thanks Eric! Excellent stuff!
I remember watching and enjoying these shows when I was a child in the early to mid 60s. WML, I've Got A Secret, To Tell The Truth, etc., featured some interesting guests, hosts and panelists. They seemed to have a certain measure of decorum, if you will, even if some of the folks involved came off as somewhat stuffy and even pretentious.
Fascinating about Paar and Kilgallen; stuff I never knew about. Thanks for your insightful work!

 
 
 Posted:   Nov 11, 2018 - 9:31 AM   
 By:   OnyaBirri   (Member)

File under Embarrassing Admissions:

I only recently learned that the cultural cliche "Is it bigger than a breadbox?" originated with this show, courtesy of Thee Great Steve Allen.

 
 Posted:   Nov 12, 2018 - 5:18 AM   
 By:   Jim Phelps   (Member)

Dorothy Kilgallen passed away 53 years ago this morning just hours after her final WML appearance.

DK didn't seem any more tense and annoyed in her final appearance than she had in any previous ones. wink I do wonder about the circumstances of her death, though; what are your thoughts on her mysterious demise, Dr. Paddon?

This was a mini-documentary I put together on Dorothy's feud with Jack Paar (I made one error in that I no longer have evidence Dorothy ever said anything about the appearance of Paar's daughter. That was another columnist).

As a kid I watched a special about Jack Paar and thought he was a fun, breezy on-air personality. In retrospect, he just comes off as a whiny, thin-skinned prima donna. I MUCH prefer (1960s) Johnny Carson.

I've always thought of Carson as the consumate professional, but a deeply private, unknowable man, as so many were from that time.

 
 
 Posted:   Nov 12, 2018 - 7:10 AM   
 By:   OnyaBirri   (Member)

...I do wonder about the circumstances of her death, though; what are your thoughts on her mysterious demise, Dr. Paddon?

I'm not a doctor, but there is a book suggesting that she was murdered because of her coverage of the Warren Commission report.

https://www.amazon.com/Reporter-Who-Knew-Too-Much/dp/1682614433/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1542031841&sr=1-1&keywords=dorothy+kilgallen

 
 Posted:   Nov 12, 2018 - 7:57 AM   
 By:   Eric Paddon   (Member)

That book is a piece of nonsense written by a self-promoting author preying on people to not dig deep in the factual record. His book is devoid of footnotes or anything scholarly, and along the way he engages in lurid speculation with zero actual proof and he also tells us amusing tall tales in his zeal to be melodramatic (for instance he breathlessly tells us Dorothy was watching TV coverage of JFK's arrival in Dallas in her New York townhouse. That would have been quite a trick considering JFK's arrival was only covered by local Dallas TV stations and didn't air in New York! But that will give you an idea of how dangerously unreliable he is).

I had an amusing exchange with him on Amazon where I took him to the woodshed over his dishonesty and he wasn't man enough to try and answer any of the points. Instead, what he tried to do was harass the owner of the Facebook group on WML (where I am one of many co-moderators) who is preparing an eventual book on the show that will include essays by numerous people, including yours truly on Kilgallen and the assassination. More than once he kept trying to apply pressure on the owner to drop me and my work from being in the prospective book because the idea of seeing a scholarly dissection of his work in print evidently frightens him. To his credit, the owner held fast and didn't knuckle under to his threats. (The book for the moment is on hold because the owner is going through some personal problems)

https://www.amazon.com/gp/customer-reviews/RUNOBK5G2MTAX/ref=cm_cr_getr_d_rvw_ttl?ie=UTF8&ASIN=1682614433

 
 Posted:   Nov 12, 2018 - 8:07 AM   
 By:   Eric Paddon   (Member)

Regarding Paar, I think it's safe to say most of us got to know him first as this figure from a distant era whom we first experienced through the rose-colored fog of clip show specials that would always show us light, innocuous material of Paar clowning around etc. Of course the fact that almost all of Paar's "Tonight" work was wiped out of existence (when we do see clips, it's usually from his less remembered 1962-65 weekly prime time show) means we really don't have the ability to go back and see and hear the things that made him controversial and polarizing on a nightly basis. The audio clips I used of his walk-off, return and his last show reveal more the real figure people experienced and you can hear good bad and ugly. Paar certainly invented the standard mold of late night talk, but he was much too mercurial a personality compared to Carson, and the fact that he used the *show* as the occasion for his public feuds with the likes of Kilgallen and Walter Winchell I think also contributed to why he flamed out in just five years. Carson, to be sure, had his share of public feuds but he never used the show as the medium for them. That's a big difference.

Ironically, while Paar could come across as petty and immature on the air, off the air he was a model husband, father and family man. By contrast, Johnny was always relaxed and nice on the air but off the air was a terrible husand and father and tended to be more aloof.

 
 Posted:   Nov 12, 2018 - 8:41 AM   
 By:   Jim Phelps   (Member)

That book is a piece of nonsense written by a self-promoting author preying on people to not dig deep in the factual record. His book is devoid of footnotes or anything scholarly, and along the way he engages in lurid speculation with zero actual proof and he also tells us amusing tall tales in his zeal to be melodramatic (for instance he breathlessly tells us Dorothy was watching TV coverage of JFK's arrival in Dallas in her New York townhouse. That would have been quite a trick considering JFK's arrival was only covered by local Dallas TV stations and didn't air in New York! But that will give you an idea of how dangerously unreliable he is).

Sounds like the author was conflating Kilgallen watching JFK's Dallas arrival with the woman who was murdered by the Boston Strangler while watching the Kennedy funeral on TV...or maybe it's me who's misremembering that particular tale.

 
 Posted:   Nov 12, 2018 - 8:46 AM   
 By:   Jim Phelps   (Member)

Regarding Paar, I think it's safe to say most of us got to know him first as this figure from a distant era whom we first experienced through the rose-colored fog of clip show specials that would always show us light, innocuous material of Paar clowning around etc. Of course the fact that almost all of Paar's "Tonight" work was wiped out of existence (when we do see clips, it's usually from his less remembered 1962-65 weekly prime time show) means we really don't have the ability to go back and see and hear the things that made him controversial and polarizing on a nightly basis. The audio clips I used of his walk-off, return and his last show reveal more the real figure people experienced and you can hear good bad and ugly. Paar certainly invented the standard mold of late night talk, but he was much too mercurial a personality compared to Carson, and the fact that he used the *show* as the occasion for his public feuds with the likes of Kilgallen and Walter Winchell I think also contributed to why he flamed out in just five years. Carson, to be sure, had his share of public feuds but he never used the show as the medium for them. That's a big difference.

Ironically, while Paar could come across as petty and immature on the air, off the air he was a model husband, father and family man. By contrast, Johnny was always relaxed and nice on the air but off the air was a terrible husand and father and tended to be more aloof.


My grandmother used to read the National Enquirer and things like that, and I remember Carson and his then-wife Joanna were constantly being followed--nearly as much as Liz Taylor and Jackie O were in those years.

In some ways those feuds become too much of a distraction and takes away from what the audience initially liked about those personalities. A real shame about Paar's show getting wiped out. Are Carson's and Steve Allen's earlier shows also gone?

 
 Posted:   Nov 12, 2018 - 9:02 AM   
 By:   Eric Paddon   (Member)

Steve Allen's Tonight Shows are also wiped out though a large chunk of his very first Tonight Show from September 27, 1954 is available. Allen's Tonight Show was actually a national rollout of a late night show he first started doing on WNBC locally at 11:30 in 1953 during his WML panelist run, and that's why it was always a sore subject with Steve whenever Pat Weaver would get credit for "creating" Tonight. Weaver's only role was seeing the viability of the kind of show Allen was already doing in a network slot.

Steve learned the lesson regarding the need for preservation much sooner than Johnny. His late night syndicated talk show for Westinghouse which ran 1962-64 exists in its entirety at UCLA. The problem is that its entirely inaccessible! But whenever documentaries want to make use of footage for clips its there at least. Here is an absolutely priceless clip of a night in early 1964 when Johnny dropped in on Steve and they did a prank phone call of Jack Paar! (the clip is from a Later With Bob Costas program in 1993)



Johnny's New York shows through 72 are largely gone though there are a fair number of kinescope clips, and portions of shows that were saved for the Emmy awards committee and random complete shows that survive. Even the LBJ and Nixon Presidential libraries recorded portions of some shows in the 1968-71 period that are otherwise "lost" in the Carson archive so a higher taste sampling is there compared to the lost run of Allen and Paar but still so much good stuff lost. (You can also BTW add Joey Bishop's late night show for ABC and Merv Griffin's CBS late night show opposite Johnny to the 98% or worse lost category).

 
 
 Posted:   Nov 12, 2018 - 9:37 AM   
 By:   OnyaBirri   (Member)

That book is a piece of nonsense written by a self-promoting author preying on people to not dig deep in the factual record. His book is devoid of footnotes or anything scholarly, and along the way he engages in lurid speculation with zero actual proof and he also tells us amusing tall tales in his zeal to be melodramatic (for instance he breathlessly tells us Dorothy was watching TV coverage of JFK's arrival in Dallas in her New York townhouse. That would have been quite a trick considering JFK's arrival was only covered by local Dallas TV stations and didn't air in New York! But that will give you an idea of how dangerously unreliable he is).

Sounds like the author was conflating Kilgallen watching JFK's Dallas arrival with the woman who was murdered by the Boston Strangler while watching the Kennedy funeral on TV...or maybe it's me who's misremembering that particular tale.


Is the book being discussed here the same one that I linked to?

 
 Posted:   Nov 12, 2018 - 10:34 AM   
 By:   Eric Paddon   (Member)

Oh yes. And he's even coming back for more with another one, though his grasp of actual archival source material and credible evidence remains all the more tenuous. He tried to get some publicity for himself after his first book was published by saying with fanfare that he was getting the New York DA's office to open a new investigation into her death when all they did was just give him a polite, "We'll look this over" and then after a couple months they told him there was absolutely no reason to start a new "investigation." (In short, they were politely dismissing him as a nut). To him, that's evidence of a "cover-up".

Back in the 1960s, even the most diehard of conspiracy buffs steered clear of suggesting Kilgallen's death was assassination related. These were the people who knew full well that she wasn't that immersed in the story (passing along stuff leaked to her by Mark Lane, who contrary to the book's assertion was actually the first major conspiracy activist and he was the one responsible for most of the things Dorothy wrote. The reason why Lane is a very obscure figure in this author's book is because to acknowledge the importance of his role would cause his entire thesis to come crashing down in ruins since Lane lived until 2016 and no one thought he was worth doing in!) It was only when Lee Israel (the subject of the recent movie "Can You Ever Forgive Me?") wrote a bio of her in 1979 well after the fact that the idea of her being "silenced" started to gain minor traction.

 
 Posted:   Nov 12, 2018 - 12:04 PM   
 By:   Jim Phelps   (Member)

I had an amusing exchange with him on Amazon where I took him to the woodshed over his dishonesty and he wasn't man enough to try and answer any of the points. Instead, what he tried to do was harass the owner of the Facebook group on WML (where I am one of many co-moderators) who is preparing an eventual book on the show that will include essays by numerous people, including yours truly on Kilgallen and the assassination. More than once he kept trying to apply pressure on the owner to drop me and my work from being in the prospective book because the idea of seeing a scholarly dissection of his work in print evidently frightens him. To his credit, the owner held fast and didn't knuckle under to his threats. (The book for the moment is on hold because the owner is going through some personal problems)

Your posts on the Amazon page were well informed whereas his replies consisted of him stiffening up. All he could muster up was, "Well, I wrote a book. Write your own since you have such a command of all the facts."

Not knowing diddly about Dorothy Kilgallen, was her death an accident? A suicide?

 
 
 Posted:   Nov 12, 2018 - 1:18 PM   
 By:   OnyaBirri   (Member)

Johnny's New York shows through 72 are largely gone though there are a fair number of kinescope clips, and portions of shows that were saved for the Emmy awards committee and random complete shows that survive...

Didn't they discover a few years back a treasure trove of those early Carson shows that were copied for distribution to the military overseas? Apparently, they were supposed to have been erased after airings, but they were accidentally saved. Do you know anything about these?

 
 
 Posted:   Nov 12, 2018 - 1:18 PM   
 By:   OnyaBirri   (Member)

Oh yes. And he's even coming back for more with another one, though his grasp of actual archival source material and credible evidence remains all the more tenuous. He tried to get some publicity for himself after his first book was published by saying with fanfare that he was getting the New York DA's office to open a new investigation into her death when all they did was just give him a polite, "We'll look this over" and then after a couple months they told him there was absolutely no reason to start a new "investigation." (In short, they were politely dismissing him as a nut). To him, that's evidence of a "cover-up".

Back in the 1960s, even the most diehard of conspiracy buffs steered clear of suggesting Kilgallen's death was assassination related. These were the people who knew full well that she wasn't that immersed in the story (passing along stuff leaked to her by Mark Lane, who contrary to the book's assertion was actually the first major conspiracy activist and he was the one responsible for most of the things Dorothy wrote. The reason why Lane is a very obscure figure in this author's book is because to acknowledge the importance of his role would cause his entire thesis to come crashing down in ruins since Lane lived until 2016 and no one thought he was worth doing in!) It was only when Lee Israel (the subject of the recent movie "Can You Ever Forgive Me?") wrote a bio of her in 1979 well after the fact that the idea of her being "silenced" started to gain minor traction.


Thanks. Having said all this, do you think that there was anything suspicious about Dorothy Kilgallen's death?

 
 Posted:   Nov 12, 2018 - 2:11 PM   
 By:   Eric Paddon   (Member)


Your posts on the Amazon page were well informed whereas his replies consisted of him stiffening up. All he could muster up was, "Well, I wrote a book. Write your own since you have such a command of all the facts."

Not knowing diddly about Dorothy Kilgallen, was her death an accident? A suicide?


It was likely an accident caused by the fact that she was having some issues with the bottle (when you watch WML reruns you can see the effects on her comparing her from the mid-50s to the mid-60s. Heavier makeup, thicker speech etc.). I think she innocently took some pills lying around the house (which her son confirmed that his father did keep) that combined with her more fragile health at that point just led to some lethal results. No one did her in whether for reasons associated with JFK or otherwise (the author of that book even does crazy parlor game speculation on whether her husband did it, or whether *Frank Sinatra* had hit men do her in because of the big feud Dorothy had with him. Under this guy's logic of looking for suspects, he should have also been considering Jack Paar!)

 
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