Interesting - thanks for sharing! Only disagreement I have is that there is no harshness "inherent" in digital recording, per se. What the intervening years have shown is that digital recordings have shown up other flaws in the recording chain (problems with mics, A/D converters, etc). Nowadays you can emulate the sound of an analog recording using digital plug-ins (in other words, there's nothing magic there).
You're right, I hadn't noticed this. I thought that Joe Gastwrit talked about inherent problems in 1983.
There's no harshness in digital recordings, indeed.
And I see no interest in emulating the sound of an analog recording. Digital plug-ins alter the signal, another problem with modern mastering.
I do think marketing (and confirmation bias, and placebo effect) has a far bigger influence on us that we realize. Case in point: I used to do a test where I would switch between high end speaker cables and cheap Radio Shack lamp cord, telling people which cables I was using. People would SWEAR the higher end cord sounded better. I am talking 80% of the listeners. But you know what? I never changed the cables. They were listening to the same cables all along. Yet people swore they heard differences. The power of suggestion is strong, and what is marketing but harnessing the power of suggestion? After switching to blind listening, the level of correct guesses as to which cable was which came out to 50% (the rate of chance).
Yes, sure, there is is no question that marketing, confirmation bias, placebo effects and many more things greatly influence your preferences and choices. There have been many interesting experiements and psychological observations to test that. I am just saying that this only goes so far. People may hear the more expensive cable as "better" even though the cable was never changed because of the power of suggestion, sure. They may hear slight differences when there are no factual differences. But nevertheless can marketing do only so much. And to sell people a $2000.- speaker that sounds worse (in their ears) to a $500.- speaker is not a sustainable business model. As I said... marketing can only go so far.
Basically my point is this - I honestly think that if people were given the opportunity to compare speakers under scientifically controlled listening conditions (which is almost never the case), they would choose the more accurate loudspeaker almost every time.
Oh, I think just about every person who enjoys hifi would love his system to sound as "natural" as it possibly can, so it should reproduce the sound as "accurately" as possible. I'd say that is the goal of most people who fork over cash for hifi equipment. And if they would even choose the more "accurate" speaker almost every single time in under "scientific" controlled listening conditions, they are likely to choose it most of the time under different conditions as well. And as I said, most speakers would sooner or later reflect that. Indeed, when you look at most high-end loudspeakers, their measured curves on the whole tend to reflect a strive for "natural" and "accurate" sound as well (just coincidentally I have the frequency response curve of a Canton 5K loudspeaker here -- a speaker I tried out and very much considered buying -- and it seems to fit the bill.
Of course, there are those who claim people often still prefer more "sounded" sound systems (Bose sure was known for pronounced bass and heights), and so some systems were sounded to appeal to this type of listener, and these things have sold. Sure, when people buy home hifi systems, they usually cannot compare them in scientifically controlled listening rooms, but that is simply because that is usually not an option. Nevertheless, you don't need a scientifically controlled listening room to compare, say, noise cancelling headphones... would be interesting which sound the majority of people choose there. According to your theory, the most "accurate" sounding headphones should always (or mostly) win. Would be great, because again, it would mean that most headphones will sooner or later sound more "accurate". Of course, with headphones you have some other things again that influence the buying decision as well, particularly comfort.
And the actual research would seem to bear that out. Having worked the retail side of this for quite a while, most people follow the herd (how else do you explain the success of Bose? As we say in the industry, "Better Sound Through Marketing").
I was never under the impression that Bose was particularly catering to audiophile crowd or was seen in high esteem among hifi enthusiasts? Their noise cancelling headphones are sure very good sellers, but Bose is more like Apple indeed in the mass business, but the vast majority of people is not that much interested in high-end sound to begin with. Of course, the market is vast. I have not had much experience with Bose products, so I can't comment much on them. Except I tried their noise cancelling headphones, which are quite good (they really cancel out noise) or their portable smartphone speakers, which are also quite nice (just as Logitech's are, of which I own one). But no one would claim these are high-end hifi.
When I worked retail, literally anyone who took the time to compare a Bose product to a speaker from almost any other brand would choose the competing speaker. I actually took the time to level match them (extremely important) and play a variety of music cuts (also very important). 90% of salespeople or buyers don't take the time to do even basic leveling of the playing field, which is critical.
Not so sure if level matching is not a bit overrated when comparing speakers for home use. After all, you set up your speakers and hear some music, sometimes loud, sometimes with lower volumes, sometimes in the "sweet spot" sometimes not. If the differences in loudspeakers could only be heard when the levels are exactly matched, maybe the differences are not that great. ;-) Also, I think it is very important to actually play the type of music that you know and listen to, as opposed to music you are unfamiliar with or don't care much about. I have my own music selection with me when choosing any hifi equipment.
"Sound great” or “great soundstage” or “excellent detail” will always be subjective." YES, this is correct. But I think it misses my point. The research I keep referring to started out by testing the speakers that did the best SUBJECTIVELY in the listening tests and then correlating that with how they measured. In other words, they would bring in tons of different speakers, and then have people rate them on a scale from 1 to 10. The ones that got the highest scores were then measured to see if there were commonalities. After doing this for several decades, they found that the speakers that people described having the characteristics you just listed all tended to be those with flat frequency response and broad, even dispersion. So it was a matter of taking what was subjective - people's listening preferences - and then seeing how they lined up with measurements. And voila! The Spinorama was born. And it shows that between 86 - 99% of listeners prefer accurate sound. It's not a matter of they should, it's a matter of they do.
Yes, I know, you have said that. And as I said and say again: that is pretty much good news I think, since that likewise means logically that the majority of speakers will reflect that preference. Also, my own subjective preferences are likely to reflect that as well, I am sure. So I should fit right in with the crowd. :-)
Are you in LA by any chance? Be happy to take you to the MLL facility next time I'm out there.
Would love to stop by, but, while I used to live in LA, I have not been there for years. I'm in Cologne, Germany. But I'd love to take you up on the offer one day next time I might get to LA. :-)
I'm sorry if I'm coming off as strident or arrogant.
Did not notice. All is cool and fine from my side. I enjoy your contributions.
To me, this is all good news -
Oh, would be great if one could pick a good speaker for home just by looking at a few graphs.
if someone is going to buy a good sound system, they need spend crazy money to get good sound.
LOL... just these few clips alone attest to what a funny, funny movie THE SWARM really is. Richard Widmark is practically standing in for Leslie Nielsen.
LOL... just these few clips alone attest to what a funny, funny movie THE SWARM really is. Richard Widmark is practically standing in for Leslie Nielsen.
"The African killer bee portrayed in this film bears absolutely no relationship to the industrious, hard-working American honey bee to which we are indebted for pollinating vital crops that feed our nation."
You're not saying. :-)
That is also a ludicrous end "disclaimer"...
Unlike the disclaimer suggests, correct is, that the African "killer" honey bee is indeed closely related to the Western honey bee (which is common in the US but not really an "American honey bee", as the honey bee was originally imported from Europe to the US centuries ago). The actual Africanized bee is also a "honey bee" and shares many characteristics with the regular "honey bee", and both lose their sting when stinging humans and die. There are some differences, and the Africanized honey bee is indeed more aggressive (particularly when defending its hive) and flies farther in swarms, but no cases have been reported where they attack and sabotage nuclear power plants or rig explosives to passenger trains.
True of course is that no bees behave like the bees in the movie, neither actual Africanized bees, nor honey bees, nor any other type of bee. :-)
I just got my "Swarm" CD today. MAN does it sound great! It sounds like a completely new score at that! What a marvelous job everyone has done. People can say what they will about the MQA process or the film itself, but this is such a treat and though I know I sound like Pollyanna, I am grateful we have this sweet sweet musical endeavor in the best way possible - at last!
The score has always been a favorite of mine in terms both of Goldsmith and Horror scores. Such a powerhouse piece. I had been waiting for this remastered - PROPER - release every since I heard the Premetheus release and was dissatisfied with it.
True of course is that no bees behave like the bees in the movie)
Also true is that no humans behave like the humans in the movie.
What is so other wordly about their behaviour?
The movie is very long... but just a few examples... US soldiers arrive at a nuclear missile base in contagion suits. Everybody there appears uninjured, but is dead. First thing they all do is remove their contagion masks. Just what humans would do. :-)
Next up: the only living person on that base is a civilian who has no business being there. They ask him who he is and what he is doing there, and he tells them it's a complicated story, let's not bother with it... and they let him get away with it.
Then there's a local older guy (Slim Pickens) who threatens to cut off the water supply if he can't get the dead body of his son out there. (Seriously... this is a missile base that can be held hostage by a just a random farmer dude who knows where the water pipeline is.)
People can see other people's hallucinations, even when they tell them there are no hallucinations, people think flame throwers are effective against bees who survive nuclear power plant explosions, ... I don't know... people behave all the time in this movie like no real people would ever behave... they really make seem Airplane like a more realistic disaster movie. There is even a doctor flirting with a waitress who just gave birth!
In case it's of interest to anyone here, The Goldsmith Odyssey recently put out a special podcast going into all the wonderful Goldsmith releases we've gotten recently (this, U.S. Marshals, Morituri from Intrada, etc.) and we play samples of our favorite parts of this score and others, while discussing our opinions about it. It's a pretty fun and informative listen, if I do say so myself, and might be helpful to anyone on the fence about this new edition of The Swarm or the other recent Goldsmith editions:
In case it's of interest to anyone here, The Goldsmith Odyssey recently put out a special podcast going into all the wonderful Goldsmith releases we've gotten recently (this, U.S. Marshals, Morituri from Intrada, etc.) and we play samples of our favorite parts of this score and others, while discussing our opinions about it. It's a pretty fun and informative listen, if I do say so myself, and might be helpful to anyone on the fence about this new edition of The Swarm or the other recent Goldsmith editions:
You know, as I was writing about Slim Pickens I did flash back to Fonda's serum scene. He sure sells the hell out of it, but it's so damned stupid I just can't praise any part of it. The world's expert tests himself first? He get worse, then better, then worse? What kind of morons put this thing together!?!
In case it's of interest to anyone here, The Goldsmith Odyssey recently put out a special podcast going into all the wonderful Goldsmith releases we've gotten recently (this, U.S. Marshals, Morituri from Intrada, etc.) and we play samples of our favorite parts of this score and others, while discussing our opinions about it. It's a pretty fun and informative listen, if I do say so myself, and might be helpful to anyone on the fence about this new edition of The Swarm or the other recent Goldsmith editions:
Great show Yavar. While my copies of these latest editions seem like will not arrive in Brazil anytime soon, it was great to listen to the selections you played and your discussions on these scores.
In case it's of interest to anyone here, The Goldsmith Odyssey recently put out a special podcast going into all the wonderful Goldsmith releases we've gotten recently (this, U.S. Marshals, Morituri from Intrada, etc.) and we play samples of our favorite parts of this score and others, while discussing our opinions about it. It's a pretty fun and informative listen, if I do say so myself, and might be helpful to anyone on the fence about this new edition of The Swarm or the other recent Goldsmith editions
I have only listened to a fraction of the available Goldsmith Odyssey Podcasts, but they are terrific, an invaluable source of information for any Jerry Goldsmith fan and a delight to listen to.
I used to listen to podcasts (not just this one, but basically all podcasts) on my commute, but since I am currently not commuting anymore (Corona-- unfortunately, not the beer), I think I must make room for podcasts some at some other time-slot.
The Goldsmith Odyssey - very interesting banter going on there, Yavar. I can still remember registering for the first time that it was Jerry who wrote the title to The Waltons. My mother, father and sister used to watch the show avidly and I've even heard it in concert with Jerry conducting his own orchestral interpolation, yet the TV original remains my favorite version for the warmth and buzz it yields. Those 60s and 70s TV shows were so iconic - we half ignored them at the time, or at least, became so familiar with the themes we just took them for granted because there was no forum in which to extrapolate.
That 36 minute LP programme of this score was a marvel of 70s engineering. The way Goldsmith sliced and diced the various highlights together, turning the 75 minute score into a 36 minute work of art is sheer genius. Don't get me wrong, the missing near 40 minutes contains some wonderful writing and incorporations of the thematic material, but for my 'on the go' purposes, I will be retaining the original LP programme and creating a bonus section, culled from my highlights of the extra/missing stuff. I especially love how he distilled the 7-8 minutes of the opening sequence (which contains action music with lots of stops and starts for tension and suspense) into a killer 3'30 Main Title that opens things up with the best of bangs.
That 36 minute LP programme of this score was a marvel of 70s engineering. The way Goldsmith sliced and diced the various highlights together, turning the 75 minute score into a 36 minute work of art is sheer genius. Don't get me wrong, the missing near 40 minutes contains some wonderful writing and incorporations of the thematic material, but for my 'on the go' purposes, I will be retaining the original LP programme and creating a bonus section, culled from my highlights of the extra/missing stuff. I especially love how he distilled the 7-8 minutes of the opening sequence (which contains action music with lots of stops and starts for tension and suspense) into a killer 3'30 Main Title that opens things up with the best of bangs.
Thanks for this, Kev. I've got this on the way from LLL and I may use your post as a roadmap as I whittle.
