Film Score Monthly
FSM HOME MESSAGE BOARD FSM CDs FSM ONLINE RESOURCES FUN STUFF ABOUT US  SEARCH FSM   
Search Terms: 
Search Within:   search tips 
You must log in or register to post.
  Go to page:    
 
 Posted:   Jul 24, 2011 - 5:05 AM   
 By:   Stefan Schlegel   (Member)

But the question still is do directors like Marshall Brickman know they are getting recycled material? More importantly, do the studios for whom Sarde wrote the music originally and for which they paid him, know he's just recycling this music. In other words, shouldn't the original film and studio receive credit or money or something? How does the publishing work?

It doesn't stop me from being the huge Sarde fan that I am, but it's just plain odd to me.


The rights situation is certainly quite different here in Europe than in the USA. I don't think that the studios play such a siginifcant part in France regarding musical rights as they do in your country. You have mainly to deal with the music publisher who pays in advance for the music which will then be recorded for the film. And if you have a closer look at the credits in the Universal CD booklets with the Sarde scores, you will also see that Sarde even has the rights for some scores himself. Just look at the credits for JOYEUSES PAQUES or LA MAISON ASSASSINÉE in the booklet of the Georges Lautner CD and you will see there "Éditions Philippe Sarde".
Often times there are other French publishers such as Sido Music, Warner Chappelll or Pema, but it is always about the music publisher. And as Sarde has been recycling music from other films for more than 30 years, there seems to be no big problem about this. Maybe our colleagues from the French Music Box Records label can say a few more things about this?
It is also a well-known fact that someone like Vladimir Cosma in France has also often re-used themes form his older scores in many cases. So Sarde is certainly not the only one composer in France who does this.
Sarde has even got away with using his complete scores for HAREM from 1985 and from L'ADOLESECENTE from 1978 for Nadine Trintignant's COLETTE in 2004 and for André Techiné's LES ÉGARÉS in 2003. Even the same recording from 1978 had been used for LES ÉGARÉS.
Director Nadine Trintignant for example didn't know anything at all about this recycling for her COLETTE TV movie in 2004 and she thought that what Sarde presented her on the piano was a newly composed theme. smile

Sarde has made it a fashion to re-use material from his French scores for his US assignments. So I don't think at all that Marshall Brickman knew anything about LE DROIT D'AIMER or LE CHOC from which the main themes for his films LOVESICK or THE MANHATTAN PROJECT were derived.
I also don't think that Polanski did know Georges Lautner's ATTENTION, UNE FEMME PEUT EN CACHER UNE AUTRE from 1983 when Sarde did compose the music for his PIRATES movie in 1985.
One has also to consider that during his heydays during the 70s and 80s Sarde did often compose 10-15 scores per year. That's quite a lot even though his scores often only had 15-20 minutes of music. Therefore it is quite logical that some recycling was necessary to keep up with such a pace. However, during the last 10 years or so his inspiration seems to have more or less vanished and most of the time he does not come up with anything new at all anymore- LA PRINCESSE DE MONTPENSIER is almost the only exception in this regard, although even there one track has been re-used from another unknown French Robin Davis film from the end of the 80s. And now you can consider yourself why just this score - LA FILLE DES COLLINES from 1989 - was not to be found on the Sarde/Davis CD compilation from last year.smile

 
 Posted:   Jul 24, 2011 - 9:55 PM   
 By:   Advise & Consent   (Member)

So he does the same thing Horner does, but looks like he does it much more often and on a much wider scale ?

I wouldn't go as far as saying that Sarde does it (or did it) on a wider scale as Jimbo used themes and motifs over and over and over. I stopped counting in the late eighties as it was tiresome and self-defeating. It would require countless pages to do a Jay Horner compilation similar to the one that Stephan posted.

 
 
 Posted:   Aug 5, 2011 - 11:03 AM   
 By:   Howard L   (Member)

Okay, call me behind the times, call me irresponsible, or call me bwana,...

LOL thanks, I needed that!

 
 
 Posted:   Aug 5, 2011 - 12:07 PM   
 By:   Howard L   (Member)

OK now that I've come back to earth, please clarify:

I am on record as a big Lovesick aficionado http://filmscoremonthly.com/board/posts.cfm?threadID=14180&forumID=1&archive=1 and if I read this thread correctly, the score is actually a re-use from a previous film?

 
 
 Posted:   May 24, 2021 - 6:25 PM   
 By:   Bond1965   (Member)

OK now that I've come back to earth, please clarify:

I am on record as a big Lovesick aficionado http://filmscoremonthly.com/board/posts.cfm?threadID=14180&forumID=1&archive=1 and if I read this thread correctly, the score is actually a re-use from a previous film?


As Stephen posted it is from the film Le Droit D'aimer from 1972.



James

 
 
 Posted:   May 24, 2021 - 7:16 PM   
 By:   lacoq   (Member)

I found out recently about the reuse of the theme from the film Le Droit D'aimer (1972) for Lovesick. I was YouTubing music by Sarde and came across the original....and I like the original take on it much better. Although both are certainly in the same ballpark, the original to me has a more innocent, tender quality to it.

 
 
 Posted:   May 24, 2021 - 7:35 PM   
 By:   villagardens553   (Member)

Alex North does this, as well. In Bite the Bullet there is a comic bit of music that was lifted from South Seas Adventures, with a slightly different orchestration.

 
 
 Posted:   May 25, 2021 - 8:53 AM   
 By:   DS   (Member)

I watched a bit of "Firefox" recently - scored by Maurice Jarre - and underneath one scene is Jarre's theme from "The Mackintosh Man" (or as the IMDB has it listed, "The MacKintosh Man"). A different, somewhat more "eighties" arrangement and maybe a few notes have been changed, but it's more or less the same. Nino Rota, of course, would also occasionally have themes from past scores wander into others (a theme from "Fortunella" making it into "The Godfather" probably being the most famous example of this because it resulted in the Academy withdrawing an Oscar nomination). None of this bothers me, though.

I'm a big Sarde fan but oddly was not familiar with "Lovesick" or "Le Droit D'aimer." Indeed the same theme is in both. I think they are best distinguished by the fact that "Lovesick" was orchestrated by Peter Knight, giving it a different feel. Both are really excellent (and it's amazing to me that a film like "Lovesick" would even have a score like this - boy are those days gone, or rather, gone are the kinds of directors/producers who would even want music like this in a romantic film).

 
 
 Posted:   May 25, 2021 - 9:02 AM   
 By:   Ford A. Thaxton   (Member)

I think it’s pretty clear that Mr. Sarde is environmentally conscious

He recycles....

As does about every other film composer I can think of to degree or another.

Example Bernard Herrmann, he recycled a number of things from early scores into his later ones and I don’t recall anyone really making an issue about that.

Ford A. Thaxton

 
 Posted:   May 25, 2021 - 9:31 AM   
 By:   Advise & Consent   (Member)

I once read a Sarde interview where he more or less said that themes aren't important. It is what you actually do with them that counts, as opposed to say Jimbo Horner who claimed that he didn't "remember" what he wrote from one film to the next. Sarde never played those silly games.

I'll try and find the source.

 
 Posted:   May 25, 2021 - 9:46 AM   
 By:   johnonymous86   (Member)

Eric Clapton reused the first four notes from the beginning of SUNSHINE OF YOUR LOVE as the first four notes in COCAINE and LET IT GROW is basically STAIRWAY TO HEAVEN and all of those songs get endless airplay. It's not uncommon in music and I don't let it bother me.

 
 
 Posted:   May 25, 2021 - 12:18 PM   
 By:   couvee   (Member)

There is an interesting passage about Eric Clapton, when he recorded "Layla" with Derek and the Dominos in 'Skydog, the Duane Allman story';

"Layla" was, without question, the most lyrical song on the album (Layla and other assorted love songs). But melodically it was pretty simple - three great verses in search of a hook. Clapton was desperately in need of a guitar line that would bring more life to the song. He had created some of the greatest guitar riffs in rock, but he was stuck when it came to "Layla." When Clapton told (Duane) Allman of his dilemma, Duane went to work, soon coming up with the seven-note phrase that is now one of the best-known guitar licks in the history of rock: 16th notes ascending from A to C to D to F, and then descending back down to D and C before returning to a long, vibrating D. It was exactly what "Layla" needed.

It would be some time before Clapton would find out that Allman's brilliant line wasn't entirely original. Duane had simply taken the first phrase of the melody from a blues ballad called "As the Years Go Passing By" and sped it up. "That's Albert King's lick," says Whitlock today. In point of fact, although the song appears on King's album Born Under a Bad Sign (where Duane probably heard it), the true composer of "As the Year's Go Passing By" is open to debate. The song is credited to one Deadric Malone - a pseudonym frequently used by Don Robey (owner of the Houston-based Duke and the Peacock record labels) upon having purchased a composition from a writer for a flat fee. "As the Years Go Passing By" was first cut in 1959 by blues singer-guitarist Fenton Robinson (the composer of "Loan Me a Dime" from Boz Scaggs's debut album). According to blues expert Jim O'Neal, Robinson always claimed that the true author of "As the Years Go Passing By" was another blues singer-guitarist named Peppermint Harris."

Author Randy Poe goes on to state that the actual number of composers who contributed to "Layla" (officially credited to Eric Clapton and Jim Gordon) might be closer to half a dozen - not only because of the interpolation of of "As the Years Go Passing By" but also due to the question of how many people were involved in the creation of the piano piece that makes up the second half of the song. Along with Gordon, two other writers are said to have contributed. "Rita Coolidge wrote that, when we were still with Delaney & Bonnie, up in John Garfield Jr.'s guest house," says Whitlock. "It was a song called 'Time.' The melody was actually a song, but Jim Gordon ripped it off." And according to another source, saxophonist Jim Horn deserves at least partial credit for the piece as well.

An interesting insight in the creation of a classic song I'd say. Shows the amount of 'borrowing' that sometime's going on.

 
 
 Posted:   May 25, 2021 - 7:09 PM   
 By:   Howard L   (Member)

I found out recently about the reuse of the theme from the film Le Droit D'aimer (1972) for Lovesick. I was YouTubing music by Sarde and came across the original....and I like the original take on it much better. Although both are certainly in the same ballpark, the original to me has a more innocent, tender quality to it.

It sure is a stand-alone listening beaut. But the real question is, for which film does it play better? I can't imagine it gets any better than for the one I've waxed rhapsodic over.

As Stephen posted it is from the film Le Droit D'aimer from 1972.

And hey Bond1965, thanks for posting. Been patiently waiting a mere decade. Just your average routine resurrection for one of the great threadkillers at this place. roll eyes

I think it’s pretty clear that Mr. Sarde is environmentally conscious

He recycles....

As does about every other film composer I can think of to degree or another.


You already said that. Ten years ago. And I like to look at Herrmann, Goldsmith, Steiner, et al. as guilty of petty theft. Sarde, however, is guilty of Grand Larceny. Whew! He even outdoes YouKnowWho and that ain't no mean feat. It's a weird feeling finding out that a score you've praised to the hilt "belongs" to another picture. Must take time to compute and reconcile fully.

 
 Posted:   May 25, 2021 - 7:21 PM   
 By:   Scott Bettencourt   (Member)

I've known about "The Sarde Issue" ever since I saw L'Adolescente in a theater and recognized the love theme from Ghost Story, but I'm sad to hear that the Lovesick theme also did not originate with that film, since that's my favorite of all his melodies.

The weirdest thing I've encountered like that was watching the Steiner-scored Mildred Pierce, where Crawford hears the Now Voyager theme on the radio and that becomes a recurring romantic theme in the score. It's a little like if Robin Williams heard "My Heart Will Go On" on a [future!] radio in Bicentennial Man and that became his love theme in the score.

 
 
 Posted:   May 25, 2021 - 7:41 PM   
 By:   Howard L   (Member)

I'm a big Sarde fan but oddly was not familiar with "Lovesick" or "Le Droit D'aimer." Indeed the same theme is in both. I think they are best distinguished by the fact that "Lovesick" was orchestrated by Peter Knight, giving it a different feel. Both are really excellent (and it's amazing to me that a film like "Lovesick" would even have a score like this - boy are those days gone, or rather, gone are the kinds of directors/producers who would even want music like this in a romantic film).



The best arrangement for me is here. I love the soft piano intro. The cue underscores the scene when Saul (Dudley Moore) steps out of the office and tails his beloved patient (Elizabeth McGovern) along streets of Manhattan. Ah, but I talked all about this in the previously cited thread. Never ceases to expose the incurable romantic within. smile

 
You must log in or register to post.
  Go to page:    
© 2024 Film Score Monthly. All Rights Reserved.
Website maintained and powered by Veraprise and Matrimont.