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I'm astonished at the various outcries for this thread to be deleted.
What's THAT all about?
"Gee...this topic offends me, so I want it GONE!"
That's outrageous.
If you don't like this conversation, you're welcome to stay out of here!
Erasure is censorship, and that's just plain wrong.
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I'm not saying that it has never occurred, but I have never encountered a BELIEVER endeavoring to silence a NON-BELIEVER.
In my experience, it's always been the other way around.
Madeline Murray O'Hare successfully silenced prayer in public schools.
Other athiests have endeavored to have the Bible removed from public libraries.
Athiests want believers utterly silenced.
I find that fascinating.
"As long as there are math tests, there will ALWAYS be prayer in schools."
-Ronald Reagan
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Well, well, Reagan was right about that, at least, and he illustrates -- perhaps unwittingly when he said it -- that the debate about "prayer in schools" is just so much smoke-and-mirrors perpetuated by the mindless zealots of the so-called religious Right-wing.
If one were to ask a former prisoner-of-war like Sen John McCain, if he prayed while in captivity, I'm sure that the answer would be, in the vast majority of cases, yes.
That being taken as a given, then, it begs the question as to how the Right-wing imagines that if the North Vietnamese (or any other adversary), with limitless amounts of physical and mental tourture at their disposal, couldn't separate POW's from their religious faith, how American public schools can do that to their students?
The answer is, of course, that they can't, and have never tried. Any student who's capable of rudimentary human thought is capable of prayer at any time or place.
You see, what the Right-wing agitates for, in its thoroughly loudmouthed and dishonest way, isn't prayer, but organized religious services in publically-funded facilities (schools) -- and the absence of a member of the clergy from such activity doesn't make it any less of a religious service.
What the Right-wingers screaming for the demolition of the separation of Church and State don't realize -- or, more likely, won't admit -- is that that Separation is, and has always been -- a two-way barrier. When the barrier is no longer there, and can no longer prevent religious special interests from coming into the public schools and dictating curriculum, then there also will be nothing to prevent the government's coming into the churches and dictating what must be preached.
It's a measure of the Right-wing's hypocrisy, then, that they ignore one of the most famous lines in Scripture: "Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's, and render unto God the things that are God's."
And, Chris, there are no "nonbelievers," only those who do not believe what you believe. To paraphrase John Donne, No Man is a Vacuum (well, G.W. Bush, maybe), and those who believe Atheism is the Way, the Truth, and the Life certainly believe in something, however alien it may seem to you.
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"You see, what the Right-wing agitates for, in its thoroughly loudmouthed and dishonest way, isn't prayer, but organized religious services in publically-funded facilities (schools) -- and the absence of a member of the clergy from such activity doesn't make it any less of a religious service."
I respectfully dissent.
That statement does NOT represent the truth (in my experience)...I cannot be everywhere at all times, so it is impossible for me to know the whole truth on this topic.
The only thing that Christian believers desire is the LEGAL FREEDOM to express their beliefs in prayer and Bible study, and to speak about these beliefs without censorship.
NEW AGE believers have TOTAL freedom to speak, move and preach as they so desire, in any public place.
Either the marketplace is OPEN, or is is CLOSED.
Christians have been largely SHUT OUT of the public marketplace, while most other religions move freely there, marketing their wares.
I apologize for using such a cheap analogy...but I think that it helps some to understand what's going on here.
Chevy, Ford, Honda and Saturn are allowed to sell their products here...BUT ROLLS ROYCE IS STRICTLY FORBIDDEN BY LAW TO SET FOOT!
Go figure!
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"Chris, there are no "nonbelievers," only those who do not believe what you believe. To paraphrase John Donne, No Man is a Vacuum, and those who believe Atheism is the Way, the Truth, and the Life certainly believe in something, however alien it may seem to you."
It doesn't seem alien to me at all, Original.
Once I believed as you do, and I understood the comment (above) as MY Truth, as you do.
But, then...I met God, Original.
I MET HIM!
He is a REAL PERSONALITY who desires to have a personal relationship with you and with me.
My life will never be the same!
I'd like to introduce you to Him...if you would allow me to.
He has something He'd like to tell YOU...
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"Atheism is the Way, the Truth, and the Life"
Original...why did you have to quote Jesus to make that statement?
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