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 Posted:   Dec 31, 2017 - 12:57 PM   
 By:   GustavoJoseph   (Member)

Surprising and great news!
In the 90s there was a small tendency common to have composers such JNH (Dante's peak, Liar, Liar) or Thomas Newman (Corina, Corina) making themes and letting other composers do the score. Can't imagine how many times a composer as big as Williams must have received offers to do that, and he only did it for Superman IV (1987), right? And he can do that in his sleep.



Didn’t he do it also for the Harry Potter films?


I don't think so, he did the scores for the first 3 Harry Potter movies, the second one with William Ross help indeed, but more than only providing themes I guess.

 
 Posted:   Dec 31, 2017 - 1:41 PM   
 By:   John Mullin   (Member)

Were your sources clear that he was talking about the MG score and not the Desplat one? Also, I find that gossip tends to become exaggerated down there, are we talking primary sources, secondary, what? Just curious! =)

I've heard the same story from two different people who have worked at Lucasfilm, and independently from a friend in the know. Williams saw the final version of ROGUE ONE, with MG's score in it, and was not especially impressed. When asked by Kathleen Kennedy who should score the next spin-off movie, he recommended Powell. That's all I've got!

 
 Posted:   Dec 31, 2017 - 1:43 PM   
 By:   Justin Boggan   (Member)

SHHH -- you'll burst the bubble of the JWFan cult who think Giacchino is the next coming and rightful heir to Williams.

 
 Posted:   Dec 31, 2017 - 4:26 PM   
 By:   SchiffyM   (Member)

I heard the same thing, from a source I trust to know these things but whom I won't name, so if nobody chooses to believe me (or him), I completely understand. Williams asked for a screening of "Rogue One" and was unimpressed by the score. I was told he then recommended Desplat for "Solo," but Kennedy told him that hadn't worked out last time, so he suggested Powell.

I believe this story to be true, based on my source. But anybody who loves the "Rogue One" score should feel very free to continue to love it, even if Williams did not.

 
 Posted:   Dec 31, 2017 - 4:43 PM   
 By:   The Mutant   (Member)

Fascinating....

 
 
 Posted:   Dec 31, 2017 - 4:44 PM   
 By:   MikeyKW   (Member)

Not that I'm defending the Rogue One score, but it was written in five weeks, during a hectic postproduction.

I like Giacchino quite a bit, and may of his score are quite effective (i.e. Up, Lost), but I keep coming back to that he's often the Epcot World Showcase version of a country, compared to Williams being the real thing with many of his scores. If you squint your eyes and use your imagination to fill in some of the gaps you could almost sometimes believe it's the real thing.

I also wish he didn't pack his schedule so tight sometimes, as some of his efforts may have been improved with more time and attention to flesh out his ideas.

I can see the comparison though, as there aren't many composers writing in that full-blown orchestral style, or seem to be given so much space on the final soundtrack.



I heard the same thing, from a source I trust to know these things but whom I won't name, so if nobody chooses to believe me (or him), I completely understand. Williams asked for a screening of "Rogue One" and was unimpressed by the score. I was told he then recommended Desplat for "Solo," but Kennedy told him that hadn't worked out last time, so he suggested Powell.

I believe this story to be true, based on my source. But anybody who loves the "Rogue One" score should feel very free to continue to love it, even if Williams did not.

 
 Posted:   Dec 31, 2017 - 6:24 PM   
 By:   Shaun Rutherford   (Member)

Lots of scores are written and recorded in less than five weeks.

 
 
 Posted:   Dec 31, 2017 - 6:52 PM   
 By:   jb1234   (Member)

I don't know what went down but I think it's a shame if Desplat is now cut out of the franchise.

 
 
 Posted:   Dec 31, 2017 - 7:14 PM   
 By:   Adam S   (Member)

Seems strange, not because Giacchino's score is beyond reproach, but for the simple fact that I don't picture Williams throwing around his clout like that, requesting a screening and than taking down Giacchino like The Godfather. I mean I can be cynical as the next guy so I'm not saying I believe it or don't believe it, just that I'm highly skeptical that Williams cares at that level about 2 films that he isn't officially involved in (until recently with regard to Solo.)

It is also worth noting that the most important person that no one has every heard of is the guy who Rian Johnson referred to who lays down the temp track. The temp track is very evident in Rouge One as it is in Last Jedi. For all of Williams deserved clout and respect, this temp track guy still has a ton of creative say even if not the ultimate creative last word. So it would be ironic if Williams can take down A list composers but still has to selectively subordinate himself to the temp track guy whose name we don't even know.

- Adam

 
 
 Posted:   Dec 31, 2017 - 7:33 PM   
 By:   willymcnilly   (Member)

I don't know what went down but I think it's a shame if Desplat is now cut out of the franchise.

An even scarier thought is if Giacchino has been cut out of the franchise.

 
 Posted:   Dec 31, 2017 - 8:23 PM   
 By:   TM   (Member)

Thanks Schiffy and Johnmullin for taking the time to reply (and not taking my curiosity the wrong way). This does sort of jive with the evasive answer Giacchino gave about Williams reaction to his score, and if so that makes me sad. I thought it was tuneful with some sublime moments and worked brilliantly to the picture. But I don't think even Giacchino himself would say that he prefers it over what Williams might have written. Maybe JW wasn't expecting Rogue One to be as enjoyable a film as it was and was disappointed not to have had the chance to score it. Or somebody could have been asking Williams some very leading questions. Or, maybe, he was only trying to hint he would have rather heard Desplat's score since that was who he recommended for Solo. I'm only hazarding guesses because, yeah, it seems out of character.

What nobody is mentioning is what an exceedingly awkward position this puts Powell in. JW hands you a theme on a silver platter you don't get to say no to using it, nor do you get the luxury of using it incorrectly if your compositional style doesn't accommodate it.

 
 Posted:   Dec 31, 2017 - 9:42 PM   
 By:   solium   (Member)

Seems strange, not because Giacchino's score is beyond reproach, but for the simple fact that I don't picture Williams throwing around his clout like that, requesting a screening and than taking down Giacchino like The Godfather. I mean I can be cynical as the next guy so I'm not saying I believe it or don't believe it, just that I'm highly skeptical that Williams cares at that level about 2 films that he isn't officially involved in (until recently with regard to Solo.)

It is also worth noting that the most important person that no one has every heard of is the guy who Rian Johnson referred to who lays down the temp track. The temp track is very evident in Rouge One as it is in Last Jedi. For all of Williams deserved clout and respect, this temp track guy still has a ton of creative say even if not the ultimate creative last word. So it would be ironic if Williams can take down A list composers but still has to selectively subordinate himself to the temp track guy whose name we don't even know.

- Adam


Exactly, why would he ask for a special screening? Even if he didn't like the music, why would he start dictating who should score off-shoot Star Wars films? Most importantly, why would Williams even care?

And I find it ironic since I thought Giacchino's Rogue One was a better score than Force Awakens!

 
 Posted:   Dec 31, 2017 - 9:49 PM   
 By:   TM   (Member)

I think it very likely that execs at Disney are finally realizing what kind of added prestige having Williams (even loosely) associated with a Star Wars project brings, and are trying to steer him into a more active roll in all the spin-off movies than he was previously interested in.

 
 Posted:   Jan 1, 2018 - 1:44 AM   
 By:   SchiffyM   (Member)

Seems strange, not because Giacchino's score is beyond reproach, but for the simple fact that I don't picture Williams throwing around his clout like that, requesting a screening and than taking down Giacchino like The Godfather. I mean I can be cynical as the next guy so I'm not saying I believe it or don't believe it, just that I'm highly skeptical that Williams cares at that level about 2 films that he isn't officially involved in (until recently with regard to Solo.)

You know what? I was wrong to share that story, and I'm truly sorry that it's generating feelings like this.

I should say that a screening for somebody like Williams is nothing unusual, not even a little bit. I know film industry luminaries personally who request these screenings all the time. I also know a couple who have a special device in their own home theaters where they request a film currently in theaters, which is then delivered to them on a hard drive that hooks up to that device and allows them to screen the film at home. (For security, it will only work on a device with a matching serial number, and it erases once the device is detached.) So yes, it requires clout, but it's not any sort of abuse of said clout. It's standard.

Also, I didn't take this as any sort of "take-down," just one man expressing his opinion. Of course, Williams is gracious in public, but he has opinions like anybody else, and his can be respected or dismissed as anybody else's would be.

Also, remember that Williams is a man who is passionate about what he does, and it is not surprising in any way that he would be unimpressed with the first (live action) theatrical "Star Wars" in four decades scored by somebody else, because it was not done the way he would have done it. This is a very predictable (I don't mean that derisively) response in such a circumstance, just as there was no way George Lucas could fully embrace the movies done without him. This is roughly analogous to how series finales of high profile television series almost inevitably disappoint fans – the fans get an idea in their heads about how they want it to go, and of course it doesn't go that way, and they object.

So honestly, Williams' opinion (if accurately portrayed here) is no big deal, and certainly nothing inappropriate. And whatever his personal opinion, there was no reason for it to be posted here, and for that, I apologize.

 
 Posted:   Jan 1, 2018 - 6:39 AM   
 By:   solium   (Member)


I should say that a screening for somebody like Williams is nothing unusual, not even a little bit. I know film industry luminaries personally who request these screenings all the time. I also know a couple who have a special device in their own home theaters where they request a film currently in theaters, which is then delivered to them on a hard drive that hooks up to that device and allows them to screen the film at home. (For security, it will only work on a device with a matching serial number, and it erases once the device is detached.) So yes, it requires clout, but it's not any sort of abuse of said clout. It's standard.


Wow, can just request a film currently in theaters stream right into their homes. The one percent at it's finest.

 
 
 Posted:   Jan 1, 2018 - 6:58 AM   
 By:   Adam S   (Member)

Seems strange, not because Giacchino's score is beyond reproach, but for the simple fact that I don't picture Williams throwing around his clout like that, requesting a screening and than taking down Giacchino like The Godfather. I mean I can be cynical as the next guy so I'm not saying I believe it or don't believe it, just that I'm highly skeptical that Williams cares at that level about 2 films that he isn't officially involved in (until recently with regard to Solo.)

You know what? I was wrong to share that story, and I'm truly sorry that it's generating feelings like this.

I should say that a screening for somebody like Williams is nothing unusual, not even a little bit. I know film industry luminaries personally who request these screenings all the time. I also know a couple who have a special device in their own home theaters where they request a film currently in theaters, which is then delivered to them on a hard drive that hooks up to that device and allows them to screen the film at home. (For security, it will only work on a device with a matching serial number, and it erases once the device is detached.) So yes, it requires clout, but it's not any sort of abuse of said clout. It's standard.

Also, I didn't take this as any sort of "take-down," just one man expressing his opinion. Of course, Williams is gracious in public, but he has opinions like anybody else, and his can be respected or dismissed as anybody else's would be.

Also, remember that Williams is a man who is passionate about what he does, and it is not surprising in any way that he would be unimpressed with the first (live action) theatrical "Star Wars" in four decades scored by somebody else, because it was not done the way he would have done it. This is a very predictable (I don't mean that derisively) response in such a circumstance, just as there was no way George Lucas could fully embrace the movies done without him. This is roughly analogous to how series finales of high profile television series almost inevitably disappoint fans – the fans get an idea in their heads about how they want it to go, and of course it doesn't go that way, and they object.

So honestly, Williams' opinion (if accurately portrayed here) is no big deal, and certainly nothing inappropriate. And whatever his personal opinion, there was no reason for it to be posted here, and for that, I apologize.


A lot of that rings true and I don't know that you need to apologize - I'm not heavily invested in the story being true or untrue to tell you the truth. My skepticism is partly just born out of any kind of heresy where all it takes is one person to get it wrong - unintentionally perhaps - and then a rumor is started. Even just the difference between the studio requesting his opinion with a screening and then Williams requesting a screening is a huge difference. The former strikes me as more plausible on the face of it and then, yeah, Williams would feel obligated to give an honest assessment. Then there's the detail of was he categorically dismissive (again seems less likely) or did he just have qualms about it in the context of a more nuanced view. But the latter would be hard to characterize in an apparently very leaky Hollywood town. And then the factor of having to hear anything new would be an argument for why he would be just as dismissive if it were John Powell or anybody else. So it just begs a lot of questions that we can't know the answer to and so I count myself as somewhat agnostic in the same way I would with pretty much anything of that nature - not a comment on you or your sources.

TM you mentioned an answer that Giacchino gave that was evasive with regard to John Williams' opinion. Do you have a source or can you sum up what Giacchino said? That's interesting.

- Adam

 
 Posted:   Jan 1, 2018 - 7:21 AM   
 By:   TM   (Member)

http://filmscoremonthly.com/board/posts.cfm?threadID=124324&forumID=1&archive=0

 
 
 Posted:   Jan 1, 2018 - 7:29 AM   
 By:   FilmScoreDaily   (Member)

The only place where I saw Giacchino mention Williams' thoughts on Rogue One was during Giacchino's AMA. https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/7gw7or/im_michael_giacchino_composer_for_lost_star_trek/dqm66ei/

DamienNightshade384 points1 month ago

Did John Williams ever say anything to you about your Rogue One score?

MichaelGiacchino691 points1 month ago

He was very complimentary.

Nothing evasive about that. We know that Giacchino regards Williams as a friend and that Williams has personally phoned Giacchino in the past (to congratulate him for winning the Golden Globe for UP). So Williams more than likely went out of his way to personally communicate and compliment Giacchino on his score to Rogue One.

Now, that being said is it possible that Williams had reservations or regrets about Rogue One (i.e. not personally contributing), sure, but that is speculation. The rumour could have aspects of truth, be 100% spot on or be a total falsehood (possibly even unintentionally). Something about it feels a bit off, in my opinion of course.

 
 
 Posted:   Jan 1, 2018 - 7:32 AM   
 By:   FilmScoreDaily   (Member)

Ah I see TM's link. The relevant part I've pasted below. From reading Giacchino's comments you can see that maybe Williams regretted not doing it himself... And now personally stepping into the Solo movie...

CB: Did you hear anything from John Williams about it?

MG: You know, John was off, and still…John was working on The Last Jedi at the time, and just getting themes ready for that. And he had some other film as well that he was doing. So he was so busy himself. But he and I have had a great relationship over the years, you know, he’s been very, very positive and supportive and sending me notes and things like that, or call me when he hears something that he likes. He’s been great. And I know that…I’m sure if he had all the time in the world he would have loved to have been in there doing it too, you know. It’s just one of those things of we’re only human, you only have so much time to be able to pull something off, so…

 
 Posted:   Jan 1, 2018 - 7:33 AM   
 By:   TM   (Member)

Does anybody know if Williams was the one who initially suggested Desplat for Rogue One? That would put the entire thing into better context...He has every right to his opinions, absolutely, as do we all. And there's no reason not to post industry scuttlebutt, especially when it is reported by multiple different sources. Word at Lucasfilm was he was unimpressed could mean anything without context for the remark, and as to recommending other composers over Giacchino, without context for what unimpressed actually means there's no value judgement there. It's interesting but like I say there's no need to assign motivations to something we have no context for.

I suspect it was as simple as, he regretted not having a hand in it and wanted to have a hand in Solo, and had to be politically diplomatic, splitting the difference between being complimentary of a colleague who's so successful right now he doesn't need it, and furthering his own agenda of being more involved with Star Wars (which nobody in their right mind would begrudge him)

 
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