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Yeah exactly. It was generic for both characters and totally ignored all of their backstory. In Kirk's fantasy maybe have Carol and David Marcus and they're a family? I mean, I know Merritt Buttrick had sadly passed away so he couldn't be there, but sheesh have Carol and then have some line of dialogue about David visiting with his family soon or something? I dunno...Antonia...wtf. Yes I realize I'm being a total geek right now.
I guess it's funny in a meta way like making fun of how Kirk just keeps going through women in an offensive James Bondesque fashion...but if that's what they were going for it doesn't come off well. You'd have thought by this point in his life Kirk might've matured just a little bit when it came to women...
Yavar
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Since Bibi Besch may not have been well enough at that time (she sadly passed just two months before the opening), all they needed was her in the distance, much like Antonia. Maybe not on a horse (or why not?) but just use her first name. Fans would have gotten it and non fans would have felt exactly the same way about the name "Carol" as they did "Antonia."
Or, for a bigger response, he could have said "Janice." 
Picard's sadness over his brother would have carried more weight if he was in the Nexus dream, too.
BUT - the score during that Christmas scene was amazing (on topic).
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Spot on, Scott -- I hadn't realized Bibi Besch was unwell at the time, but you're right that she really didn't need to appear...in the distance on the horse would've been perfect. Hell, you could have had David with her there in the same way.
Yavar
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So Kirk is no different than Picard; they had various loves and/or love interests through their lives. It's no surprise Kirk and Picard both ended up, even in the false reality of the Nexus, different women. If anything, had one or both those women been known characters, that would have lead to even more bitching from detractors.
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Perhaps. Fans bitch about everything. I'm a fan and I'm bitching right now.  But considering the Nexus is supposed to be like being "wrapped inside joy," and since these are fictional characters who have been seen with the "loves of their lives" in their respective TV series or movies, a reference to them in the film would have made more sense to followers than unfamiliar throwaways. And it wouldn't have made any difference to people who aren't familiar with them.
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Or maybe that joy wrapping revealed that Picard has not real love for Beverly. And that what ever love Kirk had for various women, since went away off screen.
Or it could be a general "joy" which is up to the person to interpret (which would make even more sense, since they either don't know they're in there or simply forget).
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Posted: |
Aug 20, 2018 - 8:21 PM
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By: |
Solium
(Member)
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TWoK
Paper Thin Plot: Simple revenge flick.
Convoluted: Unnecessary Genesis device storyline.
It's no War and Peace, but it's hardly a paper thin plot or a simple revenge story. It's about growing old, life long regrets, facing them, redemption, loss, sacrifice, forgiveness, and friendship. There's nothing convoluted about the Genesis device story line and works perfectly in context of the film.
First Contact was by far the best NG film. Really the only good NG film. The Borg mightily messed with Picards head, he witnessed their genocide, and realized this could be the last battle to save humanity. His intense passion made perfect sense.
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Agreed, TWOK was a very rich story and it's considered the best of the classic movies because of how full it was in character, not (simply) because of Khan and "pew pew" space battles.
TSFS comes in first for me because it explores the depth of closeness thee characters have for each other. While TWOK is a "better" story, Trek 3 is always my favorite as an emotional experience.
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TWoK
Paper Thin Plot: Simple revenge flick.
Convoluted: Unnecessary Genesis device storyline.
It's no War and Peace, but it's hardly a paper thin plot or a simple revenge story. It's about growing old, life long regrets, facing them, redemption, loss, sacrifice, forgiveness, and friendship. There's nothing convoluted about the Genesis device story line and works perfectly in context of the film.
First Contact was by far the best NG film. Really the only good NG film. The Borg mightily messed with Picards head, he witnessed their genocide, and realized this could be the last battle to save humanity. His intense passion made perfect sense.
There's two throw away jokes about aging. That doesn't make it a film about growing old.
There's no life-long regrets I find. The nearest I see is Kirk and his son.
What redemption? Nobody but Khan and his followers needed redemption and none of them sought it.
Spock dying didn't make the film about loss. Generations had an over-arching premise of death.
I just don't see any forgiveness that makes it a film about forgiveness.
I'd say friendship is a tenuous claim; that didn't even come into play until the final moments of the film and there was no over-arching friendship theme throughout the rest of the film.
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