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Hi, ajant.
You might also wish to consider these labels, too:
BuySoundtrax (BSX Records) / Dragon's Domain Records https://buysoundtrax.myshopify.com/
"The Home of Film and Television Soundtracks Since 2002"
Disques Cinémusique https://www.disquescinemusique.com/
Monstrous Movie Music http://www.mmmrecordings.com/
Perserverance Records http://www.perseverancerecords.com/
MMM has been dormant for a while, but I think this label could be a good home for TV music from the 1960s.
Regarding non-USA labels, Quartet Records has, I think, the most significant output of American film music. Music Box Records also issues soundtracks from U.S. productions, but their focus is typically post-1970s (the 1960s has rather meager coverage via MBR).
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QUARTET
BEAT
MUSIC BOX
Beat Records and Digitmovies are great for issuing 1960s music, but rarely (if ever) do they release American-made recordings.
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In no particular order:
La La Land Records
Intrada Records
Quartet Records
Music Box Records
BuySoundtrax
Dragon's Domain (BuySoundtrax redundant spin-off label)
Perseverance Records
NoteforNote Records (still fairly new)
Kritzerland Records
Keep in mind people propose things all the time here and a detailed proposal won't be the deciding factors. Some factors (I won't presume to know all of them):
Is the label even interested in it?
Is the studio one that plays ball with the labels?
Are there tapes available?
The extraordinary costs of research, mastering, etc., an older TV series' scores.
The rights. The rights could be complicated and difficult to solve and clear. I even recall one title where a label couldn't find who had the rights and had to skip doing a release (no, I can't recall the name of the score off hand).
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Posted: |
Dec 29, 2018 - 3:41 PM
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By: |
ajant
(Member)
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Keep in mind people propose things all the time here and a detailed proposal won't be the deciding factors. Some factors (I won't presume to know all of them):
Very apt food for thought, though I’ve never been anywhere near 100% hopeful over pitching any soundtrack release-at least not the way I’d want to see it happen. Still, there are several reasons for remaining positive in pursuit of this goal.
For one thing, though a routine business strategy of necessity, one tactic that soundtrack labels use (and which probably allows a good number of them to remain in business) is by putting collectors on notice upon launching a release for which “only 3000 copies” are available”. That helps insure the entire stock will likely sell. And depending on how fast they do sell, might then prompt the label to issue a few hundred more before permanently terminating the project. Thus, limited issuing of the CD boxed set (or 24 bit download version of same) helps to minimize marketing and production losses and thereby affords the label to then risk pursuing other projects.
Of course, some labels will pan a project proposal no matter how well presented, how available or in what condition are the original analog source tapes, how easy copyright leases may be granted, or how affordable and experienced their choice of mastering studios may be.
That’s why the more labels I can submit this project idea to the better the chances that one or more will
want to jump on it.
But what I’m also counting is that after long surveying feedback from numerous collector forums, recent reviews DVD/BD movie/TV review sites, Amazon customer reviews, articles from contemporary composers, professional music reviewers and scholars, demand for a very complete collection of the composer’s 1960-64 TV music clearly remains as vibrant today, if not more so-whether or not most of said library would benefit from being re-digitized in 24 bit.
As for any needed restoration, based on what material I’ve heard on CD, the dynamic range consistently showed that compression was kept to a minimum by the analog and/or digitizing session engineers. At worst, and perhaps as a consequence of low audio compression rates, there may have been some degree of clipping (overload) distortion, but even that was rarely, if ever, very noticeable. Nevertheless, to insure truly audiophile sound quality, using today’s very powerful equally affordable software, once mapped as a spectrogram, any experienced engineer can make short work of all instances of clipping distortion and phase anomalies.
https://www.izotope.com/en/products/repair-and-edit/rx/features-and-comparison/de-clip.html.html
https://www.waves.com/plugins/inphase#drums-phase-correction-using-inphase
Needless to say, the ideal situation would be to gain access to the entire 1960-64 first gen analog tape library. That way, assuming the tapes have long been stored at the proper temp/humidity levels, they can be
transferred via “tapelifter-less” tape transports through the cleanest and shortest analog to digital signal chain to produce excellent 24 bit 96kHz uncompressed files. Then any flaws described above can be dealt with
safely and effectively in the digital domain.
La La Land Records issued part of the library once, but have showed only minimal interest in finishing the job. Sound quality of the CD boxed set was very good to excellent, but perhaps never good to explain why 24 bit downloads were never available.
Regarding studio cooperation, that could be the #1 problem-or blessing-as follows: Still in print is a DVD set of a TV series that uses a vast chunk of said library. Not surprisingly, the DVD set has sold very well for all kinds of reasons, and there may even be talk about it be remastered for a BD version. But this studio also sells CD soundtrack albums, so if they still retain the library’s copyright licensing that may put them first in line releasing this CD boxed set/24 bit download project.
Unfortunately, this studio states at their website that they refuse to accept suggestions for new releases of new or old material. But I think I found one way to get a foot in the door. This DVD/BD label also happens to have an extraordinary number of agreements with all the major film and TV studios for re-issuing original content. Ironically, because of this I don’t know if that label should be first or last on my list to approach.
All I know is that La La Land seem to be a small indy label and no one has released anything before or since as good sounding or as voluminous as their offering. What remains is to find a label willing and able to finish the job and do it better.
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For one thing, though a routine business strategy of necessity, one tactic that soundtrack labels use (and which probably allows a good number of them to remain in business) is by putting collectors on notice upon launching a release for which “only 3000 copies” are available”. That helps insure the entire stock will likely sell.
If you mean telling buyers what is coming, labels don't tend to do that for various reason, one of which is people nag them and bother them in e-mail about when it's coming and want to pre-order something that can't be pre-ordered.
And depending on how fast they do sell, might then prompt the label to issue a few hundred more before permanently terminating the project. Thus, limited issuing of the CD boxed set (or 24 bit download version of same) helps to minimize marketing and production losses and thereby affords the label to then risk pursuing other projects.
A label can't just issue more of something (I know, Lukas got away with it). They are limited to what the amount is for various reason, one of which might be contractional.
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Posted: |
Dec 29, 2018 - 3:50 PM
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By: |
ajant
(Member)
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Keep in mind people propose things all the time here and a detailed proposal won't be the deciding factors. Some factors (I won't presume to know all of them)....
Very apt food for thought, though I’ve never been anywhere near 100% hopeful over pitching any soundtrack release-at least not the way I’d want to see it happen. Still, there are several reasons for remaining positive in pursuit of this goal.
For one thing, though a routine business strategy of necessity, one tactic that soundtrack labels use (and which probably allows a good number of them to remain in business) is by putting collectors on notice upon launching a release for which “only 3000 copies” are available”. That helps insure the entire stock will likely sell. And depending on how fast they do sell, might then prompt the label to issue a few hundred more before permanently terminating the project. Thus, limited issuing of the CD boxed set (or 24 bit download version of same) helps to minimize marketing and production losses and thereby affords the label to then risk pursuing other projects.
Of course, some labels will pan a project proposal no matter how well presented, how available or in what condition are the original analog source tapes, how easy copyright leases may be granted, or how affordable and experienced their choice of mastering studios may be.
That’s why the more labels I can submit this project idea to the better the chances that one or more will want to jump on it.
But what I’m also counting is that after long surveying feedback from numerous collector forums, recent reviews DVD/BD movie/TV review sites, Amazon customer reviews, articles from contemporary composers, professional music reviewers and scholars, demand for a very complete collection of the composer’s 1960-64 TV music clearly remains as vibrant today, if not more so-whether or not most of said library would benefit from being re-digitized in 24 bit.
As for any needed restoration, based on what material I’ve heard on CD, the dynamic range consistently showed that compression was kept to a minimum by the analog and/or digitizing session engineers. At worst, and perhaps as a consequence of low audio compression rates, there may have been some degree of clipping (overload) distortion, but even that was rarely, if ever, very noticeable. Nevertheless, to insure truly audiophile sound quality, using today’s very powerful equally affordable software, once mapped as a spectrogram, any experienced engineer can make short work of all instances of clipping distortion and phase anomalies.
https://www.izotope.com/en/products/repair-and-edit/rx/features-and-comparison/de-clip.html.html
https://www.waves.com/plugins/inphase#drums-phase-correction-using-inphase
Needless to say, the ideal situation would be to gain access to the entire 1960-64 first gen analog tape library. That way, assuming the tapes have long been stored at the proper temp/humidity levels, they can be transferred via “tapelifter-less” tape transports through the cleanest and shortest analog to digital signal chain to produce excellent 24 bit 96kHz uncompressed files. Then any flaws described above can be dealt with safely and effectively in the digital domain.
La La Land Records issued part of the library once, but have showed only minimal interest in finishing the job. Sound quality of the CD boxed set was very good to excellent, but perhaps never good to explain why 24 bit downloads were never available.
Regarding studio cooperation, that could be the #1 problem-or blessing-as follows: Still in print is a DVD set of a TV series that uses a vast chunk of said library. Not surprisingly, the DVD set has sold very well for all kinds of reasons, and there may even be talk about it be remastered for a BD version. But this studio also sells CD soundtrack albums, so if they still retain the library’s copyright licensing that may put them first in line releasing this CD boxed set/24 bit download project.
Unfortunately, this studio states at their website that they refuse to accept suggestions for new releases of new or old material. But I think I found one way to get a foot in the door. This DVD/BD label also happens to have an extraordinary number of agreements with all the major film and TV studios for re-issuing original content. Ironically, because of this I don’t know if that label should be first or last on my list to approach.
All I know is that La La Land seem to be a small indy label and no one has released anything before or since as good sounding or as voluminous as their offering. What remains is to find a label willing and able to issue the complete
1960-64 TV music library. And maybe this time doing so by going beyond the CD format for even better sound quality.
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One thing to note is the older the title the smaller the audience. We have done huge titles like Lost in Space and Trek complete. While a complete LIS sold out it was only due to us selling it at a heavily discounted price through our distributor. Doing complete releases is a heavy financial gamble because of the costs involved in transferring, producing and of course mastering. Most folks don't want all of it either when it comes to TV. They would rather have the best stuff. Multiple volumes may be the way to go seeing how the first one sells.
Did I miss something in your post as to what the title was?
MV
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Posted: |
Dec 29, 2018 - 8:46 PM
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By: |
ajant
(Member)
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One thing to note is the older the title the smaller the audience. We have done huge titles like Lost in Space and Trek complete. While a complete LIS sold out it was only due to us selling it at a heavily discounted price through our distributor. Doing complete releases is a heavy financial gamble because of the costs involved in transferring, producing and of course mastering. Most folks don't want all of it either when it comes to TV. They would rather have the best stuff. Multiple volumes may be the way to go seeing how the first one sells.
Did I miss something in your post as to what the title was? MV
Thanks for visiting us here!
I certainly wouldn't question your concerns about the challenges of pursuing a soundtrack release. Any trouble in any stage in that process can cause major setbacks, force unwanted changes in project presentation and quality, cause resentment among personal and partnerships, etc. And such concerns can only become more worrisome when dealing with material decades old. As having zero experience in the biz I can’t and won’t assert anything with certainty. But there are exceptions to everything, however rare.
I do know the music I’ve grown to love and why. And when I found countless others from countless places online expressing just as intensely the same feelings about this same library of sounds, it would be hard to accept your claim that the older the material the harder it is to sell much of it.
As you cared enough to join us and since it was La La Land who risked so much to issue that superbly produced 3 CD set ten years ago, you will rightly be the first to receive my proposal.
But first let me discuss what I understand to be some very positive market realities and techniques, though again I don’t claim to know all the facts and costs about same.
First, as you will hear upon comparing the music from your release to the music from the specified DVD set (referenced via the accompanying Excel file), virtually all music of the former was drawn from the latter. Upon hearing what went missing from your set I believe you will be hard pressed not to think again about how many of thousands of soundtrack collectors wouldn’t indeed want to own this previously unreleased music-the complete 1960-64 library in 24 bit re-digitized sound. Indeed, as directed by that Excel file you will hear for the first time so much of “the Best Stuff” that went missing,
Second, one member who had helped produce your set asked to let him know if and when I find an interested label. And we both have other personnel recommendations which may at least help keep the project from going over budget and very possibly sounding far better than anyone ever thought possible.
Speaking of both budget and sound quality, here’s what I had kept on hinting at throughout my thread here and again the proposal you’ll receive: While the 16 bit CD format remains popular with collectors it’s clearly no match for the sound quality of anything sold here. http://www.hdtracks.com/
While I’ve yet to have personally purchased any such music downloads, nearly all recorded analog masters re-digitized in 24 bit possess a dynamic range that can only be experienced to be understood. Compare the CD version of a favorite movie soundtrack-that is, the exact same session takes from the movie version-with that in the remastered 24 bit BD release. On respectable hardware, you’ll feel as well as hear the difference.
Furthermore, not only will there be no CDs press and package but you can’t lose any money on 24 bit downloads that don’t sell, or sell as quickly as you may or may not expect them to.
And yes, you can first see how well the first batch of 24 bit files from the composer’s library sell before deciding about issuing the next batch.
Prefer selling the files yourself from your own website instead? What not? Several years ago, I think it was EMI Music who announced that they might do this. Whether or not they did so, it will probably cost you or any soundtrack label next to nothing to sell your own 24 bit downloads. Yes, the files are quite large but every computer audiophile knows that storage space is quite cheap. And the sound quality of 24 bit audio will make loads of new customers out of old ones. How can you lose? Everyone wins.
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Posted: |
Dec 30, 2018 - 12:07 AM
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By: |
ajant
(Member)
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I truly understand the reasoning behind your replies, but I never once meant to deny any and all labels an opportunity to consider marketing what many of us have long requested. .
Who knows, maybe it really won/t sell very well. All I can say for now is that assuming many members here have heard and loved La La Land’s CD set as much I do, they will surely know better than to judge the rest of where that came from by this cover.https://www.amazon.com/Stoney-Burke-Complete-Jack-Lord/dp/B00AX5B0RY
Perhaps few, if any, of us have an absolute favorite 1960s soundtrack composer, as many of them have each put out quite a bit of very memorable sounds, which we find ourselves delighted to continually revisit. For me, there’s Bernard Hermann, Pat Williams, Dan Alexander, Dave Grusin, Pete Rugolo, John Barry, John Williams, Earle Hagen, Elmer Bernstein, Van Cleave, Billy Goldenberg, Gerald Fried, Jerry Goldsmith, et al. But if I was damned to pull the works of just one from the fire it would likely be Dominic Frontiere’s, whose entire catalog of incomparable TV music I’ve carried with me since I first experienced “The Awe and Mystery” of Outer Limits TOS.
I never had the privilege of meeting or otherwise chatting with Mr. Frontiere but a few years ago, as a B-day gift to myself, I drew up the courage to find his contact info http://www.afm47.org/ and called him. His wife answered and said that he was out, but I felt like a zillion when she accepted my life long gratitude for his stunning and diverse body of musical works.
https://variety.com/2017/music/news/dominic-frontiere-dead-dies-composer-outer-limits-1202648539/
I recently shared these thoughts and experiences with Randall Larson, who wrote the thrilling multipage
history of the Outer Limits soundtrack for the La La Land CD boxed set. I hung on its every word tracing each episode’s musical details and Larson’s survey of the great triumphs and deep pitfalls the show’s creative staff had enjoyed and sustained during and ever after the show’s initial 18 month network run. http://www.buysoundtrax.com/Dominic_Frontiere_obit.html
As for giving La La Land first crack at aye or nay on this new project, believe it or not I couldn’t have been more surprised when it was obviously La La Land’s Matt Verboys who replied here. I’ve never even met Matt, knowing of him only from being mentioned in his Frontiere boxed set’s liner notes. So as for how Matt discovered this thread, which is only days old, your guess is as good as mine. Indeed, now that I recall it was shortly before or shortly after Frontiere died last December that I had emailed the label about doing this project and either Matt or whoever had replied with little or no real interest. But things and attitudes change and if you don’t ask then you don’t get. And had it been any other label’s rep who may have been somehow tipped off and chose to stop by, he/she would have received the same “Thanks for visiting us here! “ and gotten pitched the same offer.
But for what it’s worth, every label I know and was kindly introduced to here will receive the exact same pitch that Matt just received from me a little while ago before 5pm Sunday.
And concluding the pitch to every label is this statement:
DISCLAIMER: "I have not received nor sought compensation in any form as an inducement to pursue the genesis or realization of this proposed project. I was compelled to describe the features and marketability of this product idea by a lifelong passion for high fidelity sound, as an audio enthusiast and from a boundless appreciation for Dominic Frontiere’s commercially accessible and/or private library of TV music, circa 1960-1964."
The bottom line is that after all this time I simply can’t get enough of Dom Frontiere’s stuff, especially his early 60s TV music. But I also love that music library far too much to be content with the very respectable but far from satisfactory sound quality of the above DVD set. And there’s no doubt that loads of us here and far beyond this website also want to own this complete collection-and with the best possible sound quality.
I’ve merely attempted to propose a way that might make it profitable for any label to make it all happen.
Tomorrow morning I’ll email the proposal to all those soundtrack labels mentioned here and several more
I know.
Then hit the gym, pay some bills and do other stuff. Thanks to all for your help.
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Posted: |
Dec 30, 2018 - 1:07 AM
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By: |
JB Fan
(Member)
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Little advice - try not to mention words "24 bit 96kHz" & "digital downloadable version" too often here 
As for most people here downloads (especially WITHOUT CD) means "no sales".
And yes, MV is right - releasing titles in small volumes (2-3-4 CD, not 15-20-25 CDs at once) could help. For several reason - first of all, you can see, if the title is popular (look at B:TAS situation - re-issue of vol. 1 was 5000, 2nd was 3500, 3rd & 4th - 3000, so I bet that LLL found how much people would buy their next Batman-related titles).
But the most important is second reason - the price!
Allow me to be bit egoistic, but some people outside US can't afford to buy expensive boxes due huge shipping cost, taxes etc. I know some people from Europe, who can't buy recent Harry Potter box, due it's expensive! And they are true Williams fans. Don't offend fans outside US - we also love music from popular TV shows, and it will be very sad, if we can't buy them only 'cause it was released in huge box, not in separate volumes. 
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