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 Posted:   Feb 11, 2019 - 5:22 PM   
 By:   mducharme   (Member)

Hello,

I notice a few apparent changes made to the cue "The Enterprise" that seem to have been made on the scoring stage.

About 3 seconds in, to my ears, the flutes present in the score do not seem to be in the recording. The viola harmonics, the synthesizer, and the vibraphone and piano are there, but I do not hear the flutes. In that register, the flutes should be especially prominent as well - especially the first note, C7, which would be extremely loud on regular flute, nowhere close to the marked 'p' dynamic. The Fimucité live recording on YouTube to my ear places a piccolo on the original top flute line and removes the other two flute parts, and even then, the piccolo line really stands out. This seems to confirm that if there was a flute or piccolo present at that point in the original recording, they should be prominent enough to be clearly audible, and they are not, at least to my ears.

Then 42 seconds in, the theme is played with a solo english horn according to the score, but in the recording it is clearly played by a solo french horn instead. This is extremely apparent to the ear and was certainly a change made on the scoring stage. The Fimucité live recording on YouTube doesn't incorporate this change and uses an english horn instead of a french horn.

Does anybody know more about these changes, or about other changes made to this cue while on the scoring stage? I was actually really surprised to see Goldsmith writing such a high note for flute at 'p' dynamic, he certainly would have known that flutes cannot play that C7 note quietly - unless there is some absolutely amazing flautist in LA who can actually manage that?

Thanks!

 
 Posted:   Feb 11, 2019 - 5:36 PM   
 By:   Grecchus   (Member)

Not really my line, but are you referring to the LLL 3-CD set? Can you highlight specific tracks with name and number? For instance, the Malfunction cue on disc 1 and disc 3 have noticeable differences I can pick out as a non-musician and point to within a second.

The LLL extras include quite a bit of evidence that improvisation did actually take place. On TMP, it seemed to me that there was some larking going on with good humor being apparent. This contrasts with the echoplex sessions on Patton, where Goldsmith is audibly irritated when a musician miscues a trumpet statement and the poor guy has to justify himself to posterity in a much more tense environment - maybe there were time constraints, or, something the composer had seen as being so straight-forward in his own head that anyone could follow the obvious line of chronology because "there it is," right on the end of their nose - but was proving to be more subtly intricate to implement in actual fact.

 
 
 Posted:   Feb 11, 2019 - 5:41 PM   
 By:   mducharme   (Member)

Not really my line, but are you referring to the LLL 3-CD set? Can you highlight specific tracks with name and number? For instance, the Malfunction cue on disc 1 and disc 3 have noticeable differences I can pick out as a non-musician and point to within a second.

It would be disc 1, track 5 of the LLL 3-CD set. I'm comparing this recording to the notated score and noticing these differences. Unfortunately there seems to be no alternate "The Enterprise" on disc 3 to compare with.

 
 
 Posted:   Feb 11, 2019 - 5:52 PM   
 By:   jb1234   (Member)

Either that or the notated score you have is from an earlier version of the cue.

 
 
 Posted:   Feb 11, 2019 - 6:03 PM   
 By:   mducharme   (Member)

Either that or the notated score you have is from an earlier version of the cue.

It is from the final cue as far as I can determine. I do know the early rejected version as well, it is not that version. Besides those two changes, nothing else really jumps out at me as different between the score and the recording, although it is harder to notice changes when the music starts getting more full and more instruments are present.

I do know that Goldsmith sometimes made changes on the scoring stage when he finally got to hear it, so I fully expect that would be the case for this score as well, and this cue. The changes would probably not have been made to the score afterwards (why would they need to once it had been recorded?), so the only record of them would be in the raw audio recording from the session where Goldsmith verbally requests the change.

 
 
 Posted:   Feb 11, 2019 - 6:17 PM   
 By:   mducharme   (Member)

The LLL extras include quite a bit of evidence that improvisation did actually take place. On TMP, it seemed to me that there was some larking going on with good humor being apparent. This contrasts with the echoplex sessions on Patton, where Goldsmith is audibly irritated when a musician miscues a trumpet statement and the poor guy has to justify himself to posterity in a much more tense environment - maybe there were time constraints, or, something the composer had seen as being so straight-forward in his own head that anyone could follow the obvious line of chronology because "there it is," right on the end of their nose - but was proving to be more subtly intricate to implement in actual fact.

I don't know whether there would have been "improvisation" aside from the blaster beam stuff possibly. Everything gets notated in a rather fixed way for orchestra, it really has to. It is not like a jazz ensemble. If the flutes are not playing in the recording, he probably removed them after finding them too loud; if they are indeed playing there, then the players must be beyond amazing to play that quietly in that register (since it doesn't even sound to me like they are playing).

Sometimes as a composer, the way that you hear things in your head may not be exactly the way they actually end up sounding on the scoring stage - even if you are really skilled with audiation for orchestral music, it never really sounds exactly as imagined. There are always slight differences, and sometimes you have to make changes on the fly to adjust.

Changing the english horn to french horn was a really good move I think, it was a better choice there. He would have either dictated the part to the horn player on the fly at the session who would have written it in pencil, or he may have had it pre-written into the part as a "play if cued" passage, if he thought in advance that he might like to try that.

 
 Posted:   Feb 11, 2019 - 6:19 PM   
 By:   Grecchus   (Member)

I particularly like the 'exuberant' Goldsmith on the damaged Firesale track of Von Ryan's Express, where he is so gobsmacked the orchestra has so thoroughly complied with his version of events he actually punches the air with a 'nailed it' tone by yelling, "MARVELLOUS!"

I guess that means we've seen the Jekyll And Hyde of Goldsmith over these three releases. Mood could have everything to do with why we become so familiar with the version of events etched on mag tape forever more.

 
 Posted:   Feb 11, 2019 - 6:25 PM   
 By:   Grecchus   (Member)

Okay, my subjective non-musician play on something a little bit abstract you're onto but may just be relevant. During the cue, there is an important oboe solo (at least, that is what I've always assumed it to be) which playfully follows a work bee that is in the frame and it is making a scurrying type of movement, which is a local highlight. Maybe those flutes were too much in competition with that particular solo on the finished product, where multiple focus on two separated 'flourishes' just would not do.

 
 
 Posted:   Feb 11, 2019 - 6:48 PM   
 By:   mducharme   (Member)

Okay, my subjective non-musician play on something a little bit abstract you're onto but may just be relevant. During the cue, there is an important oboe solo (at least, that is what I've always assumed it to be) which playfully follows a work bee that is in the frame and it is making a scurrying type of movement, which is a local highlight. Maybe those flutes were too much in competition with that particular solo on the finished product, where multiple focus on two separated 'flourishes' just would not do.

I believe you are referring to the Eb Clarinet solo that goes from around 2:35 to 2:51. I agree it is a "scurrying" type of movement, and that is certainly related to the worker bee, but I don't think the reason for the possible flute removal or change from english horn to french horn had anything to do with that passage. However, it's possible that Goldsmith at first wanted to find more places to have woodwinds on the melody (to balance out the string color and the brass color), and chose the english horn in the written score for that purpose (since it is a woodwind instrument), but changed his mind once he heard it, changing it to french horn (a brass instrument). In the final cue, that leaves the "scurrying" Eb clarinet solo as the only woodwind solo passage in the cue.

The recording of the early "rejected" version of the cue has the english horn instead of the french horn.

The english horn sounds more romantic and pastoral, the french horn sounds more noble and heroic.

 
 Posted:   Feb 11, 2019 - 6:59 PM   
 By:   Grecchus   (Member)

Did I say "oboe." How silly of me. Of course, it IS a clarinet. Right, so now it may be the case if I'm following you correctly, the final piece might have been carefully constructed, with hindsight, to include a more balanced 'color' palette of instrumentation.

I've heard The Enterprise live under JG's baton, so who knows, perhaps he was thinking of that not far off moment when people like us would be there to hear it in concert hall mode, and no matter how uninitiated that audience might be, no ifs - no buts, it had to sound absolutely pitch perfect. Every time. Could be those flutes right at the beginning may have been too garish. When I hear it today, it has a very pleasant 'Goldilocks' progression where nothing is too hot, too cold or too flat. The handover from start to finish is just right.

 
 
 Posted:   Feb 11, 2019 - 7:25 PM   
 By:   mducharme   (Member)

Did I say "oboe." How silly of me. Of course, it IS a clarinet. Right, so now it may be the case if I'm following you correctly, the final piece might have been carefully constructed, with hindsight, to include a more balanced 'color' palette of instrumentation.

Yes, I think that he was originally trying to construct it carefully to give a more balanced color palette - having a few melodic bits in the woodwinds to provide some coloristic contrast from the string and brass melodies. That's probably why he originally included both the english horn solo and the Eb clarinet solo (the only two woodwind solos in the piece). In the final recording, the english horn solo is replaced by the french horn solo, leaving only one woodwind solo (the Eb clarinet passage). Therefore, at some point (possibly during the session) he probably decided that the more noble, heroic character of the french horn was necessary for that moment, esp. for Kirk's line "they gave her back to me, Scotty". The english horn had provided a more balanced color palette than the french horn, but the noble and heroic character of the french horn fits better for the mood of that moment.

I've heard The Enterprise live under JG's baton, so who knows, perhaps he was thinking of that not far off moment when people like us would be there to hear it in concert hall mode, and no matter how uninitiated that audience might be, no ifs - no buts, it had to sound absolutely pitch perfect. Every time. Could be those flutes right at the beginning may have been too garish. When I hear it today, it has a very pleasant 'Goldilocks' progression where nothing is too hot, too cold or too flat. The handover from start to finish is just right.

I wonder then if there might be a copy of the score that has these revisions written in. The version performed at Fimucité has the english horn, which differs from the final recording.

 
 
 Posted:   Feb 11, 2019 - 7:43 PM   
 By:   mducharme   (Member)

Interesting.. the RSNO version (conducted by Goldsmith himself) also has the english horn instead of the french horn:

https://youtu.be/TcFIhC6vN4s?t=40

Perhaps Goldsmith forgot that he had changed the english horn to french horn in the final recording?

 
 Posted:   Feb 11, 2019 - 7:49 PM   
 By:   Grecchus   (Member)

I wonder then if there might be a copy of the score that has these revisions written in. The version performed at Fimucité has the english horn, which differs from the final recording.

That would be . . . logical! Sorry about that. When you quoted that specific piece of dialog, darn it, I heard the replay in my head. That solo French horn is being very finely balanced - wistful, perhaps? That says, hey Mr French horn, you need to empathise and emulate an English horn at this precise moment in time. It is very nicely and memorably played. Unlike the work bee clarinet, which is discreet in note by note fashion, crisp and plays quite quickly, that alto French horn is slow, drawn out and there's no discreteness - it plays continuously throughout its term of engagement. That's one long drawn out breath the player has to let out. That Frenchie comes back right at the end of the picture, when Kirk is contemplating what might have happened to Decker and Ilea - it's almost the same thing - in fact, the Enterprise theme briefly plays out at that point. Yes, I see, you point out the obvious, however, one doesn't think about these sorts of details every day.

 
 
 Posted:   Feb 12, 2019 - 8:33 PM   
 By:   erepel   (Member)

Thank you, mducharme, for your original post. Definitely favor the French horn over the English horn during Kirk's "they gave her back to me" dialogue. And thank you, Robert Wise, for pushing Maestro Goldsmith to find that outstanding theme. I do not get tired of listening to "The Enterprise", whether spinning on the turntable in 1979 or playing a .wav file in 2019. Still get chills when the trumpets lead the brass for the full reveal of the Enterprise.

 
 Posted:   Feb 13, 2019 - 5:03 AM   
 By:   Grecchus   (Member)

During the 'interior' travel pod sequence, with the French Horn solo where that exchange between Kirk and Scot takes place, there is a musical change of reference from the dialog drama to the 'exterior' Enterprise tour that takes place shortly after.

What is going on during that short interim after the French horn has done its bit for Kirk and crew, but before the succeeding trumpet solo begins? There's a sort of 'slide' of the strings, which if not performed by capable hands could end up a total mess in the change of timing or tempo of whatever that method is: does it have a technical name? Also, is that actually done continuously by the orchestra or is there a splice at the point just after that string "slide," for wont of a better expression?

 
 
 Posted:   Feb 13, 2019 - 5:18 AM   
 By:   Marcato   (Member)

Relax, It happens all the time



even in ALIEN

LANDING cue on film and soundtrack

start with a soft opening before woodwind ostinanot kicks in and we here a trumpet theme



that trumpet theme was also on score in the soft opening, played by woodwind - BUT it seems that it was removed on the scoring stage becaurse it does not actually work compared to what was recorded

 
 Posted:   Feb 13, 2019 - 6:16 AM   
 By:   Grecchus   (Member)

Marcato, TMP is all nostalgic, whereas the Alien score is punctuated by a sense of the unknown and mystery. The Landing begins with a low register string sustain, which is punctuated by two separated notes, which I assume was percussive, possibly a xylophone, before the 'wavy' woodwind ostinato you mention occurs - the Alien track seems to be slightly nautical to me, in the way it kicks off - like a ship on the distant horizon being driven by uncertain weather conditions. The Enterprise begins straight off with a chirpy quality and what I take to be a cello ostinato see-sawing back and forth - so it has a somewhat low key busy start as Kirk and Scot make off from the 'space office' in the travel pod.

Edit: the Alien Landing start you discuss - if not a trumpet solo then what woodwind would substitute it - would it be an oboe, by any chance? The Intrada 2-fer doesn't indicate an alternative track, as mducharme says there is no alternate Enterprise track on the LLL 3-fer to act as reference. How do you know there was a different take to Alien's The Landing incorporating woodwind over brass?

 
 
 Posted:   Feb 13, 2019 - 8:25 AM   
 By:   Marcato   (Member)

Well - write to my email if you like to know more

 
 Posted:   Feb 15, 2019 - 7:59 AM   
 By:   Grecchus   (Member)

Marcato, is there any way this can be divulged on the board as I don't have access to FB?

 
 
 Posted:   Feb 16, 2019 - 7:52 AM   
 By:   Marcato   (Member)

Marcato, is there any way this can be divulged on the board as I don't have access to FB?



write my mail: 224@jubii.dk

 
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