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Helluva a lot of work from w k stratton to tell us what we already know, joanie! 
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Undoubtedly interesting.
There are of course already several peckinpah books and wild bunch books joanie as you probly know.
Have u ever read David Weddle's If they move, kill em?
Is very good.
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Posted: |
Feb 24, 2019 - 11:27 AM
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By: |
mgh
(Member)
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Great topic, Joan.
The Wild Bunch and The Searchers would be the two films I would pick to be the top of the list of best westerns ever made. But which is the best is a difficult and probably impossible question.
Both Ford and Peckinpah have the pulse of the west. Both use the landscape as a character, and both center their films on men of determination, men who believe in some sort of honor, and a code of behavior.
But after that, they are two very different films. The Wild Bunch is about the end of the west, the end of certain kinds of men, the end of honor. These are not particularly good men, but they do live by a code and with the coming of civilization, that code is not only dying, it is being destroyed.
The Searchers is also about the coming of a new way of life, in this case a more positive one, but more so, it is about the acceptance of things and letting things go. In the end, Ethan is unable to enter into this new world; he is left behind with his old ways, just as the men of The Wild Bunch are. But Martin and Debbie and the others are able to go forward into a place of hope.
Which is the better film? Honestly, I am not able to choose between them. In my mind, they are equal.
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Posted: |
Feb 24, 2019 - 1:16 PM
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By: |
joan hue
(Member)
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Yep, Bill, I have read Weddle’s book. Learned a lot.
mgh, I was hoping you’d chime in. You, as usual, have given a brilliant analysis of both The Wild Bunch and The Searchers. Loved your thematic analysis and insights. I’m pretty sure you are correct in saying that they are both equal.
It seems like Lonely Are The Brave and Ride The High Country would have thematic connections or similarities to The Wild Bunch.
For me, picking the best western ever is probably too subjective. I tend to like movies that pull me in emotionally. While I totally admire The Searchers, I don’t have a real strong emotional connection with it even though the themes are brilliant, and John Wayne plays against his usual persona. Also, I do admire that brilliant final scene. I find myself enjoying The Wild Bunch, The Magnificent Seven, The Big Country, and Lonesome Dove a bit more than The Searchers. I also think that Shane is probably one of the best westerns. I admit that I also connect to Quigley Down Under and Dances with Wolves and probably neither one would make the top 10 best westerns. I’m too subjective, I guess.
Of course, all the above-mentioned westerns do have great film scores.
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Posted: |
Feb 24, 2019 - 3:20 PM
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By: |
MusicMad
(Member)
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I recall watching The Wild Bunch (1969) many years ago ... probably over 2+ sittings and from a pan & scan TV broadcast. I thought it was awful ... I had no affinity for any of the characters and whilst I recognised the story told of their redemption, willing to fight on for a cause ... it's been told so much better ... this version didn't work for me.
I know I should give the film a second viewing, preferably in w/s with a decent print & sound but then there are so many other films that fall into this category.
I was raised on westerns and still enjoy them in my advanced years but I prefer the traditional storyline with the good guy overcoming odds to win out.
Joan, you mention Dances with Wolves (1990) ... after nearly 20 years this remains one of my favourite films ... I struggle to nominate any other I prefer ... but, to me: it's not a western but, rather, a drama about characters set in the untamed parts of your continent in the post civil war years. A pedantic view, open to challenge by most, but important to me: I love films like Rio Bravo (1959), The Magnificent Seven (1960), Open Range (2003), The Man from Laramie (1955), The Far Country (1954), The Fastest Gun Alive (1956), 3:10 to Yuma (1957) ... the list goes on and I don't feel that superb movie falls into this genre.
And the film heading this thread doesn't come close to bringing me the enjoyment these films have on multiple viewings.
Mitch
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Posted: |
Feb 24, 2019 - 3:32 PM
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By: |
mgh
(Member)
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It seems like Lonely Are The Brave and Ride The High Country would have thematic connections or similarities to The Wild Bunch.
I agree; these two films have much in common, and I would put them in the category of great westerns.
For me, picking the best western ever is probably too subjective. I tend to like movies that pull me in emotionally. While I totally admire The Searchers, I don’t have a real strong emotional connection with it even though the themes are brilliant, and John Wayne plays against his usual persona. Also, I do admire that brilliant final scene. I find myself enjoying The Wild Bunch, The Magnificent Seven, The Big Country, and Lonesome Dove a bit more than The Searchers. I also think that Shane is probably one of the best westerns. I admit that I also connect to Quigley Down Under and Dances with Wolves and probably neither one would make the top 10 best westerns. I’m too subject, I guess.
Again I would agree to all of the above, and I will add a few: Budd Boetticher's Comanche Station, Seven Men From Now, The Tall T, and Ride Lonesome. Superb films. "Minor" masterpieces. Anthony Mann's The Naked Spur and Winchester '73. Delmer Daves 3:10 to Yuma and Cowboy.
But I think I am digressing. But when you bring up great westerns, I have no willpower. 
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Mitch you need to see WB on a proper dvd or bluray with big tv screen clarity. It is an immense work on so many levels. Nothing of its like has been made before or since. One of those movies where all the perfect elements come together in unrepeatable serendipity, not least a phenomenal now dead cast all at the end of their careers but bringing to the table western movie gravitas you simply couldnt find today. There are countless good westerns, great westerns, decent westerns, but WB is a majorly serious film on another universe.
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Posted: |
Feb 24, 2019 - 4:10 PM
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By: |
joan hue
(Member)
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Hey, Mitch, glad you joined us. It is fine not to like The Wild Bunch, but like Bill suggests, you might try watching it again after so many years, and if you don't care for it upon a second watch, that's fine. Glad you and I share a LOVE for Dances With Wolves. I also like the other westerns you mention.
Yes, mgh, we lack willpower when it comes to westerns. You named a few I really like and one or two I've not seen, but I will because I have Starz Encore.
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CINEMA RETRO is devoting an entire issue to this !
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I like this....
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I like this too...
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